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Education

To 11+ or not to 11+?

23 replies

curlew · 17/10/2006 13:40

How sure would you want to be that your dc was going to pass before you put them in for the 11+? I know you can't be sure about anything, but....opinions, please?

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Milliways · 17/10/2006 13:43

Depends how much THEY want to go to the school, and how well you think they will do there.

DD was classed as a "Sure Thing" & didn't get in, but is flying through her GCSE's. DS was not such a sure bet but was soooooo determined to go he worked his socks off with practice papers & got in.

The Grammars vary considerably from area to area. Take your child for a visit & start early if they want it!

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gegs73 · 17/10/2006 13:46

I would go for it as long as it didn't mess up their chances of getting into another decent school if they didn't pass. Also they were bright and didn't need constant tutoring for months to have a chance of getting in.

I wouldn't put lots of emphasis on it though unless they were very bright just incase they failed.

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Crackle · 17/10/2006 13:57

I would want to be fairly sure that they would pass.

I downloaded some practice sheets/past papers last week and the verbal reasoning one stumped me. I am very sure that my bright 10yo would have crumpled if he was faced with that paper.

I am going to do some more research though as my dh also went very pale when he tried to answer some of the questions. Maybe it was just a duff website.[/hopeful]

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Piffle · 17/10/2006 14:00

get some mock ups from wh smith/ Letts
work throught them with your child.
Do you prefer the grammar over the other choices? does your child, where will their friends be going?
Etc etc

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Freckle · 17/10/2006 14:10

Have you spoken to their current school? DS2's school do CAT tests at the end of Y5 and a mock 11+ at the beginning of Y6. Dependant on the result of these tests, they will tell you whether your child is recommended for grammar or high school.

If your school doesn't do the same thing, I would speak to their class teacher and the head.

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HallgerdaLongcloak · 17/10/2006 14:14

Crackle, these people do a nice, helpful, cheap booklet explaining the different types of verbal reasoning question.

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curlew · 17/10/2006 14:19

We've done the school visits and she has fallen in love with a grammar school which fits her perfectly - lots of music, dance (you can do GCSE dance!)drama -lovely girls, lovely site - everything you could wish for. BUT. She did very well in her end of year 5 sats - 5,5,4B. She did very well in the CATS test in verbal reasoning, slightly less well in the non verbal reasoning and less well in maths. (the school don't give out the actual marks. Her teacher says she has a good chance but "is not a racing certainty" I am just hesitant about putting her in for a test that she might well fail - and fail so very publically. The alternative non selective school is OK - not brilliant, but OK. She wants to do the test, and I am almost decided that she sould do it. But how awful to be a designated failure at 11! Because that's how they'll see it, however we try to "spin" it for them.

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Milliways · 17/10/2006 14:29

My DD failed & cried a lot for a day or 2. Didn't help when teachers kept asking "What went wrong? Didn't you want to go!!!!" etc.

However, you don't have to tell anyone where you came (599/600 or 101/600 - still not in top 100) & friends soon forget that you tried & you all go to the Comp together. She is still predicted all A & A* GCSE's next year. AND, I didn't let this stop DS from trying (having seen his sister's disappointment).

It is NOT failing if you are not in the top 100, you could still have "passed" the exam.

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curlew · 17/10/2006 14:33

I know that, Milliways, and you know that, but I'm afraid that 55 11 year olds comparing sceondary school places won't know that! Your poor dd - that must have been awful. Sometimes teachers are the pits!

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rustycreakingdoorbear · 17/10/2006 19:03

My DS passed & DD failed 2 years later (boy's & girl's grammars,DS was same school as Milliways & I think DD probably was too) It didn't seem to bother DD much, but I spent five years wondering if I should have had DD coached. However, DD has just done her GCSEs and got very good results, much better than a lot of those who did get in, who probably were coached.
If she really wants to do the test, I'd let her, unless it would prejudice her chances of getting a place at a good school elsewhere (I don't know how your admissions system works)

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Crackle · 17/10/2006 22:09

HallgerdaLongcloak, thank you so much for that link! I passed the online test.

Once you understand the premise of 'rules', the questions seem much easier. Really excellent website.

Thanks again.

Do you have anymore good sites tucked away?[/cadge]

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Piffle · 17/10/2006 22:12

I'd let your dd make the choice in that case Curlew - she is old enough to accept the pros and cons.
I know lots of boys who were borderline who surprised a few people and a few highly coached certs who didn't get the level. I also know some coached boys who passed and are now foundering in yr 8
So familiarise her with what the tests are about find out the level she needs and let her know.
And good luck

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frogs · 17/10/2006 22:29

I brainwashed dd1 into the mindset that, "if you don't get into a school, then it isn't the right school for you". I think she did actually believe it as well, although she did in fact get into her first choice school.

I would ask yourselves the following questions:
Is he naturally competitive? Is he the kind of child who would prefer to take the risk of failing over the safe option of not trying at all? Or is he the kind of child who is so devastated by failure that it might throw him completely off balance? Worth spelling out to a child the risk/potential benefit equation, and getting them to think about where they sit on this scale.

How bright is he? Presumably everyone who's considering 11+ has reasonably bright children, but is he outstandingly able or just above averagely bright?

How competitive is entry to the school in question? Some of the grammar schools round here (London) have 10 applicants for every place, so that they're probably taking the top 1-2% of the ability range. This is not the kind of school you want your child to end up in unless they really are in that league and can take the pace and enjoy it too. You also need to bear in mind who else is applying -- if the selective school takes lots of kids from local prep schools who have been gearing up for 11+ since the word go, then even a bright state school child may find himself outperformed.

How good is the pastoral care in the school? Some selective schools are incredibly sink or swim, so your child needs to be not just academically bright, but robust as well.

What fall-back options have you got if it all goes belly-up? This can raise the stakes considerably -- the very good comprehensive that all dd1's friends applied to won't consider anyone that is also applying to a selective school, so if she'd failed life would have been very difficult. But in an area where admissions are done 'blind' without first preference criteria (not outlawed as some people on other threads seem to think, certainly alive and well here in London anyway), then it might be worth a punt for all but the most senstive little flower.

In the end it's a combination of all these factors. I was pretty sure dd1 would pass, because in the course of trying to sort out some of her earlier school difficulties she'd had an Ed Psych assessment done, which showed that she is actually v. good indeed at doing the kind of tests that come up on the 11+. So that was handy. Her school is also not nearly as competitive as some of the other ones, and has outstandingly good pastoral care, so I knew it would be a supportive place for her to be. And she really really wanted to go there, understood the risk that she might not get in, but was prepared to take that chance in pursuit of what she wanted.

hth

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HallgerdaLongcloak · 18/10/2006 09:19

No other sites quite as good as that one, Crackle, but it is worth looking at school sites to see if they have downloadable free practice papers. Here is one. I also found 11+ English - A Parents' Toolkit very useful. The book contains lots of comprehension and essay papers and general advice on how to help your children with English in preparation for secondary school work - it's not entirely directed towards the 11+.

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curlew · 18/10/2006 10:34

WSell, we've done it. The form's gone off - the girls grammar first, an excellent oversubscribed school that we're out of the catchmetn for but which she might just get into on musical aptitude second and the OKish high school that she will definitely get into third. Gulp. I do hope we've done the right thing!

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Loshad · 18/10/2006 10:45

good luck curlew - keep us posted

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figroll · 18/10/2006 15:12

Crackle

You say you and dh can't do the Verbal Reasoning - I can't either, but my two kids were absolutely fine with it! I think it must be my age, but I get more stupid the older I get. My youngest loved VR and my eldest had a particular penchant for NVR - strange people.

If you have a grammar school by you and your children are bright, I would definitely go for it, otherwise you would spend the rest of their school career wondering, what if . . .

Do it in a totally no pressure way - we will just try it and see because everyone else seems to do it, so we may as well have a bash, etc. That is what we did and both of ours got in.

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lemonstartree · 18/10/2006 17:25

where abouts do you live ???

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miljee · 18/10/2006 21:18

I do have to say to 'figroll's' What if..? ie if a child doesn't go for grammar school entrance when it transpires -GASP- THEY MIGHT HAVE PASSED!!! the implication being that you, cruel parent, consigned your poor weeping child to a life in the saltmines; really it isn't quite like that. Let's get over this pass/fail thing. An 11+ should decide whether a child has a natural academic mind that will benefit from a largely academic cirriculum. (Sorry but I did have to smile at a grammar school 'with a strong dance program'! Wot?). A good comprehensive gives its academic pupils academe, its arty pupils art, its handy pupils a damn good grounding in the plumbing career that will leave the rest of us weeping with envy. To put my cards on the table, in '73 I went to girls grammar. I got 8 O levels and 3 arty A levels. I was considered distinctly average (I messed up my uni entry!) BUT I went to radiography college where I was with a girl with 7 O's and 2 A levels from a secondary modern and 6th form college. She'd been the star attraction at her school and her self esteem was waaaay up there! Couldn't see 'the problem' at all! The concept of 11+ 'failure' is why so many counties did away with it decades ago. Incidentally, one interesting point is that in MY day, a parent had to opt OUT of the 11+. We all did it thus the social spread at the grammar whould make today's upper middle class intake recoil in horror!

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figroll · 18/10/2006 21:53

Who said anything about sending children to saltmines . . . mine are going up chimneys when they finish school. Just because they go to grammar school I wouldn't want them to get ideas above their station after all.

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curlew · 18/10/2006 22:18

Miljee - explain to me why a grammar school shouldn't offer dance GCSE?

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HallgerdaLongcloak · 19/10/2006 07:44

curlew - I agree. Would anyone comment adversely on a grammar school having a good cricket team? Why should dance be seen differently?

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mandylifeboats · 19/10/2006 19:25

Crackle, try www.elevenplusexams.co.uk

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