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Performance Related Pay - a good thing right?

(86 Posts)
StarlightMcKenzie Tue 15-Jan-13 23:12:18

especially the bit about being able to keep the better teachers in the classroom.

Feenie Sat 19-Jan-13 00:30:36

It's hard to argue when you put it like that, morethanpotatoprints.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 18-Jan-13 16:44:15

Once again another idiotic bureaucratic idea set up by a Government.
I feel so sorry for teachers as they are mostly unable to do the job they set out to do and get flack from all corners.
I don't use the education system anymore because the more I found out about policies, procedures and red tape, the more I realised that our dc were the last consideration for all concerned. My dd is worth more.

StarlightMcKenzie Wed 16-Jan-13 23:08:24

Aaa agh, long post then iPad lost power.

Might try again but need to get over that programme on C 4. Am shaking with rage.

goingmadinthecountry Wed 16-Jan-13 22:58:14

Starlight, it's a bit like being on stage for the duration of a play (one man/woman play).
There isn't one minute during my contact time with children where I can fill in forms/tick boxes. That's not the best way to educate children. Hours of time at home and when not teaching cover that bit. I know what's going on, just don't have time to write it all down.
As a parent (of 4) I can tell a good teacher. I can assure you it isn't the one who ticks the most boxes. I am qualified to say this because some of my children are at university after great teachers helped them get lots of A* and A grades, and because I have done this job off and on for years (not for the money, I hasten to add). There are lots of rubbish teachers. That's awful, but there are lots of rubbish doctors/dentists/whatevers too.

TheFallenMadonna Wed 16-Jan-13 22:47:01

Oh yes. We have digressed with Ofsted. My fault. Sorry.

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 22:42:36

I'm pretty sure that Ofsted would be happy with a mini plenary where children self-assessed against success criteria or traffic lighted understanding without the teacher having to make detailed notes on each student's individual response.

TheFallenMadonna Wed 16-Jan-13 22:38:37

Depends on the inspector I think ET. We have also had training recently (they certainly have a lucrative sideline in CPD...) and although he spoke of progress over time, he was also all about short learning episodes and mini plenaries to demonstrate progress in the observation.

I reckon Ofsted observations are somewhat less objective than most teachers' progress tracking...

EvilTwins Wed 16-Jan-13 22:28:13

For each student, that should say.

EvilTwins Wed 16-Jan-13 22:26:24

We had an INSET about AfL this week with an OFSTED inspector. The current focus is progress over time. I have concerns about proving what I know about the progress made by my students because I teach a practical subject (Performing Arts) and they don't have books/folders in KS3. The fact is, I am constantly assessing- I'm like a helicopter parent, constantly buzzing around and correcting, discussing, making suggestions for how the students can improve/ develop/ move towards and beyond targets. I might write things in my mark book once per fortnight (this is KS3 drama, so I see them once a week, so I'm recording this once every two lessons). At the end of every half term, I do review grades for parents and fill in a progress tracker for my own records. I also fill in a box on a more detailed progress sheet (this is a comment, rather than a level or grade) for each subject. I have been assured that this is enough. OFSTED do seem to have some faith in teachers' professionalism.

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 22:15:20

Personality. You have to form relationships with your classes and you can't do that if you're a robot.

TheFallenMadonna Wed 16-Jan-13 22:15:00

I am familiar with Khan academy and ABA. Like many teachers, I'm a behaviourist at heart. We measure, we reinforce, we modify and shape. It's what we do, have always done really, and now do explicitly.

We also (I hope - most of us) inspire. Sometimes my students have lots of questions. I answer them. I illustrate the answers (using technology - God bless the internet). I give them examples they hadn't even thought to ask about.

Is there any measurable outcome in progress in these episodes? Not really, and I wouldn't do it if Ofsted were in the room. But mostly, my students love Science, and those who don't love it themselves love that I love it, and that pays dividends in terms of long term aspirations and achievement. That's the art bit.

StarlightMcKenzie Wed 16-Jan-13 22:01:38

Personality? Or motivations?

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 21:59:22

Right, I adapt interventions in as close to real time as possible (in fact in real time^). What I don't do while I'm teaching is record progress. Because I am too busy intervening. Any time I am creating a written record of something in a lesson is time ^not spent actually helping a kid understand something.

You seem to want to reduce teaching to a set of prescriptive tick-boxes. It doesn't work like that. Children are all different. Teachers are all different too. Personality isn't something that can be measured and quantified, yet it's very important in teaching.

TheFallenMadonna Wed 16-Jan-13 21:52:31

What do you mean by data?

Of course it's going to vary. Some lessons I do practicals. They can take most of the lesson (SLT very twitchy with regards to 20 minute Ofsted observations and practicals, especially ones where the students find out what's going on once they have collected and analysed the data...). So, in those lessons, the data I collect with regards to students' progress might be questioning as I go around. But I might not get to interrogate all 30 students. I might then mark their homework on the practical, but the quality of that might vary with not only their understanding of the topic, and their proficiency at graph drawing, but also how much time they spent on it, whether they actually tried to work out the answers or just dashed something off to meet the hand in date. And that is where professional judgement comes into play. That and talking to students. Which is more qualitative than quantitative, and therefore dodgy evidence. Apparently.

StarlightMcKenzie Wed 16-Jan-13 21:50:42

Khan academy is a tool, not a teacher. The same way as an interactive whiteboard. The teacher's job IMO is to keep on too of latest research and technology and harness it for the benefit of his/her students, recording progress and adapting interventions in as close to real-time as possible, objectively, not subjectively.

Which is why IMO, teaching is a science to be measured objectively, not an art to be measured aesthetically.

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 21:44:54

And that, by the way, is why the Khan Academy can never replace a good teacher.

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 21:43:15

No, it's not a science, it's an art. Although there are methods which can improve learning, obviously, different classes respond differently to different things and a good teacher adapts their teaching methods accordingly, as they get to know the class.

I have never taught exactly the same lesson twice.

StarlightMcKenzie Wed 16-Jan-13 21:39:58

Is teaching a science? A vocation? A counselling service? Childcare?

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 21:37:50

Did you just pluck those figures out of thin air, perchance?

When I am teaching I am on. I am constantly looking around, questioning students, talking to them, keeping an eye on behaviour, responding to questions, on my feet scanning, assessing, teaching.
You'd prefer to interrupt that to have me go around students asking individuals if they remember what we did yesterday then filling out some sort of spreadsheet? When I am looking at that spreadsheet, my mind and my focus is not on my class. Which is bad.

StarlightMcKenzie Wed 16-Jan-13 21:31:26

Who said anything about spending all their time doing paperwork?

But for arguments sake, if learning coukd be increased by 50% but reducing 'teaching' by 10% in favour of data collection, woukdn't that be a good outcome?

Have you tried it? Have you found the optimal relationship? Does it vary by class? Or is it just your professional opinion that it wouldn't work?

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 21:25:17

I'll tell you right now that there would be far less learning going on if the teacher is spending all their time doing paperwork.

StarlightMcKenzie Wed 16-Jan-13 21:16:37

The thing is, whether they are teaching or not is highly irrelevant. What IS relevant is whether anyone is LEARNING and whether they are doing it optimally.

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 21:12:14

Er, because in that 5 hour contact time they're teaching? What do you think they're doing??

StarlightMcKenzie Wed 16-Jan-13 21:09:37

Teachers have at least 5 hours a day contact time. Why not then. If data gathering is incorporated in the teaching. Technology is a very helpful tool. I take it you've come across Khan Academy and ABA?

noblegiraffe Wed 16-Jan-13 21:05:19

When exactly do you expect teachers to be making all these notes and getting the time to look at them? With 30 children? And what would you expect them to do with the data? The class isn't going to stop following the curriculum and go back two weeks because little Johnny has forgotten some concept learned in Science.

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