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Academically Selective Education

(984 Posts)
HelpOneAnother Fri 07-Dec-12 15:16:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

april1st Mon 24-Dec-12 14:35:41

I think this thread s gone on and on for too long just like the GSs - out of hand!

TotallyBS Mon 24-Dec-12 10:14:43

You haven't paid any attention to my comments beyond the few sentences that rankle your chains and which you are now using as the basis as your anti teacher basher rant???

As a parent, that is a worrying thing to hear from a teacher. How do you expect to teach kids to listen to all the information before forming an opinion if this is your thinking in the Real World?

You aren't exactly making a case for teachers being a special exception compared to civil servants in general.

noblegiraffe Mon 24-Dec-12 09:46:18

This is your comment I am specifically replying to, BS. I haven't really paid any attention to the rest of what you might have said, so focus on why exactly you said this:

However when people read about semi illerate kids graduating from the system etc etc it doesn't exactly paint a picture of a bunch of professionals that should be paid more.

Some kids will go through school and come out semi-literate. That is also a sad fact of life. Like I said, your comment is a huge statement to unpick without simply placing the blame at the feet of their teachers. That you can't see that suggests that you really don't know what you're talking about and just fancied a cheap shot.

TotallyBS Mon 24-Dec-12 09:17:48

... and as for "teacher bashing" posts, I see a lot of selective education/tutoring bun fights but apart from MNetters posting anecdotes about their encounters with their teachers, I don't see any concerted efforts to 'bash' teachers in general. Having said that, you consider my comments as 'teacher bashing'.

TotallyBS Mon 24-Dec-12 09:05:07

That is a silly analogy. People die in hospitals. It is a sad fact of life. It is not the same as a kid spending years at a school and emerging at the other end semi illerate. There are clearly schools that are failing and I am perplexed at a teacher getting all defensive merely because I've mentioned this as a subject for discussion.

And where do I make any comment on pay rises? If the teachers union negotiate a pay rise then good for them. All I am saying is that everyone else is either getting 0% or loose change rises becauseof the economy and I don't see the teachers as a special case.

You obviously see your profession as a special case. Why?

noblegiraffe Mon 24-Dec-12 08:20:56

No, it's because you use poorly thought-out arguments to suggest that we, as a group, are bad at our jobs that makes you a teacher basher.

I imagine if you'd said something like 'when you read all these reports of people dying in hospitals it doesn't paint nurses as a bunch of people deserving of a pay rise', nurses might feel a bit annoyed.

TotallyBS Mon 24-Dec-12 00:07:45

Stop acting like the world is picking on little old you (or your profession).

Teachers are paid a reasonable salary IMO. You think you deserve more? So do train drivers, nurses, soldiers, me etc etc. What makes you so different or special?

As I said upthread, I consider cops, soldiers and firemen special because they risk their lives for a modest salary relative to the risk they take. Just because I regard teachers as just civil servants doesn't make me a teacher basher.

noblegiraffe Sun 23-Dec-12 20:26:00

It wasn't the fact that you posted about teachers on the education forum, but that you chose to follow up your opinion 'teachers aren't undervalued' with essentially 'they're a bit shit'. You're not saying that ALL teachers are incompetent (wow, thanks hmm), but you are choosing to focus solely on that which you think shows that as a 'bunch of professionals' they don't deserve a pay rise.

As for 'semi-literate kids', like I said, that is a huge statement to unpick, you can't simply conclude that teachers are incompetent. There are so many contributors here to the literacy system that teachers have very little control over. The kids. The parents. The latest teaching methods that must be followed. The curriculum. The measurement by which it is decided that a kid is literate. The suggestion that somehow literacy standards have fallen would also appear to be dubious.

As for people coming on here complaining about teachers - that's like saying holidays are crap, just look at trip advisor.

Why focus solely on the negatives then wonder why teachers feel undervalued?

TotallyBS Sun 23-Dec-12 18:54:17

'general statement'?

Putting aside official reports, some poster upthread somewhere was going on about kids ariving at her year 7 with a reading age 2 years behind their chronological age. Other MNetters have come on here to complain about their DC's teachers.

I am not saying that ALL teachers are incompetent but some certainly are.

What compelled me to post about teachers in a forum called 'Education'? Is that a trick question? confused

noblegiraffe Sun 23-Dec-12 15:48:23

But you have chosen to make a general statement about semi-literate children, which is a huge issue to unpick and simply used it to suggest that teachers as a group don't deserve a pay rise (i.e. not very good at their jobs).

What compelled you to post that? Do you go around slating other groups of professionals in general based on not-very-well-thought-out arguments?

TotallyBS Sun 23-Dec-12 15:21:36

I wasn't aware I was teacher bashing. I don't assign teachers a special status. To me they aren't any different from a person who shuffle paper in an office.

However if you think that teachers deserve special status like cops or soldiers or firemen (people who risk their lives for a modest paycheck) then I can understand why you feel undervalued.

noblegiraffe Sun 23-Dec-12 15:11:35

No, of course not. But you're not the only one who does it by any means. Let's say it's a cumulative effect when I talk about casual teacher-bashing.

TotallyBS Sun 23-Dec-12 15:08:05

noble: Are you really that much of a fluffy bunny that a few remarks from an anonymous stranger on a forum makes you feel 'undervalued'?

noblegiraffe Sun 23-Dec-12 14:23:28

I'm a teacher. Casual teacher-bashing makes me feel undervalued.

TotallyBS Sun 23-Dec-12 13:07:43

Why do I get the impression that a lot of you are teachers grin

noblegiraffe Sun 23-Dec-12 09:39:36

'teachers aren't undervalued....they just sound a bit shit at their jobs'


TotallyBS Sun 23-Dec-12 09:30:14

... but my spurious logic aside, teachers IMO are not underpaid or under valued in general. However when people read about semi illerate kids graduating from the system etc etc it doesn't exactly paint a picture of a bunch of professionals that should be paid more.

TotallyBS Sun 23-Dec-12 09:17:29

Apologies rabbit. I incorrectly connected your latter comments to the former comments made by someone else.

rabbitstew Sat 22-Dec-12 23:01:52

In fact, it really is the pot calling the kettle black when the only time I've referred in any way to teachers' earnings on this thread is to tell you that deciding they must earn quite a lot simply because they can afford to live next door to you is spurious logic.

rabbitstew Sat 22-Dec-12 22:49:46

I'm interested in how banks make their profits, how estate agents make their money, etc - whether or not it directly affects me, the attitude permeates throughout society and thereby indirectly affects me. Surely I would be a fool to pretend these things don't affect me and are of no justifiable interest to anybody????

rabbitstew Sat 22-Dec-12 22:44:43

TotallyBS - I don't remember saying whether I think teachers get paid too little, too much or just right - you were the one commenting on that. I merely pointed out that what you said was a bit silly and explained why your logic didn't make any sense, given that it's all relative - we are all well off compared to an Indonesian street cleaner, after all, and badly off compared to Bill Gates. So maybe you are doing the seeker, in that you wonder why people are bothered about what others earn, yet you are the one to notice your next door neighbours are teachers who live in an expensive house and thereby conclude that they must be well paid.

As for so why someone might have an interest in what people earn - as I pointed out, greed is insidious, it affects the way people behave. Why not be interested in that??????? Are you not interested in how much your estate agent earns off the back of the sale of your house and how he justifies it?????!!! You can be interested in that without referring directly back to yourself or the size of your neighbour's house, surely?

TotallyBS Sat 22-Dec-12 22:19:56

rabbit: You are doing a 'seeker' here. You profess to not caring what other people earn from a comparative viewpoint but earlier you were going on about teachers pay. So what if an estate agent gets paid more than a teacher?

Elibean Sat 22-Dec-12 22:11:04

I don't actually seem to know many people who are interested in or inspired by how much others earn.

I suppose what motivates envy or inspiration depends on what values any group of people have. I've come across academic envy/inspiration, creative envy/inspiration, social envy/inspiration - just never seem to have moved in financial envy/inspiration circles.

rabbitstew Sat 22-Dec-12 19:56:38

And of course, if people did go to church more often, the hugely wealthy wouldn't find it gave them a very comforting message grin.

rabbitstew Sat 22-Dec-12 19:54:33

I'm not hugely interested in what anyone else earns in comparison to me, provided they earn enough to live a reasonable life and I earn enough to live what I consider to be a decent life. I am interested in the deadly sin of greed, though, and the amazing cheek of people who think that anyone interested in others' greed is envious of their greed, rather than worried about the insidious effect greed has on all of us.

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