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Academically Selective Education

(984 Posts)
HelpOneAnother Fri 07-Dec-12 15:16:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MsAverage Sat 08-Dec-12 14:57:20

But what about the kid that gets dumped in front of the tv until he goes to school at 7?

I would not be worried a lot about families wealthy enough to afford a sitting at home child carer. Those who I would be concerned of are working mothers, which will have to pay for kindergartens for 2-3 years longer.

losingtrust Sat 08-Dec-12 15:14:23

Serious stuff at age 4. Do you know I looked at a private nursery that had children sitting at desks at 3. Ridiculous. Children need to be taught to love learning and kindergarten far better method. It would also allow for more children to learn how to explore. Nature walks, cooking, climbing trees, taking risks. As an employer this is one of the elements in graduates that I find weakest. The ability to try something new to see if it will work. Early exploration would have helped rather than spending unnecessary hours trying to teach reading to a massively different ability.

APMF Sat 08-Dec-12 15:27:40

Panto - There wasn't much 'serious learning' being done at our Years R and 1so is this any different from formally starting school at 7? Not really.

Re comment about the advantages of starting at 4, they weren't chained to the desks and their crying ignored while they recited from memory the periodic tables :-)

I often ask this question - why does it have to be either/or? There is nothing wrong with starting academic stuff at 4 IF there are equal measures of 'fun' stuff.

If a DC isn't coping then of course you back off but I think that if a parent pushes their child a little bit they might be pleasantly surprised.

APMF Sat 08-Dec-12 15:31:02

A lot of mums 'sit at home' because what they earn if they get a job isn't enough to pay for child care.

dinkybinky Sat 08-Dec-12 15:53:49

Why withhold a child from learning until 5 yet alone 7? I read to all my children whilst they were babies, they all read fluently by the time they were five and have a passion for reading to this day. There is plenty of time in the day for playing,painting socializing and learning.

MsAverage Sat 08-Dec-12 15:58:20

APMF, the cost of childcare is so goddamn high that even their dads have to sit at homes.

APMF Sat 08-Dec-12 16:04:08

It is obvious that you and I know the same dads smile

losingtrust Sat 08-Dec-12 16:08:05

I would never advocate not reading to your children. I still read to my 8 year old. Please don't confuse that with formal teaching to read.

MsAverage Sat 08-Dec-12 16:10:19

Going to school at 7 should not be viewed here as a main feature of Finnish education system and discussed as persistently as isolated(ly).

Kindergarten in Finland costs ~250 Euro per month max (down to 23 Euro for the poorest), starts at 9 months old and is provided by state to any mother which chooses to go to work. There are shortages of places in large cities, especially with recent birth rate growth, but the aim of the state is clear. If we are talking about schools at 7, shall we speak about adopting the rest of the package they go with?

MsAverage Sat 08-Dec-12 16:17:54

The dads constitute some enigma. If 40% of children in my borough live in the families where nobody works, how much of them are living with moms only? And the trickiest question - is it the same dads all over? I think it would be great for the country to know their heros.

seeker Sat 08-Dec-12 16:37:03

"Why withhold a child from learning until 5 yet alone 7?"

You're not withholding a child from learning by not putting them in a formal school situation. If you give a child the opportunity, they can't help learning.

APMF Sat 08-Dec-12 19:35:10

What a lot of people are failing to realise is that for many children the alternative to a 'formal school situation' is NOT visits to the museums, a day trip to places of historical interest or even a parent reading to them.

APMF Sat 08-Dec-12 19:42:17

What a lot of people are failing to realise is that for many children the alternative to a 'formal school situation' is NOT visits to the museums, a day trip to places of historical interest or even a parent reading to them.

alcofrolic Sat 08-Dec-12 20:12:04

Finland has a population of about 5.5m. London alone has 3m more people!

About 1.7m Finns are under 14 years of age, compared to 21m in the UK!

I can't see how we can even think about using a Finnish model in this country as the demographics, the geography, the climate, the social structure and employment opportunities are SO different!

Pantofino Sat 08-Dec-12 20:42:34

Kindergarten in Belgium is FREE from age 2.5, It has a 99% take up rate.

seeker Sat 08-Dec-12 20:54:54

I don't think anyone is suggesting that children should stay at home til 7- the European countries that have a late start date for formal education tend to have very comprehensive pre school provision. Usually starting at about 3. It's the formal education setting that doesn't kick in til 7.

Pantofino Sat 08-Dec-12 21:05:50

Exactly that Seeker. They receive education - a very comprehensive one to be told, by degree level staff. It is NOT childcare For example, one term dd learned about "wheat". So they went to the farm where it was grown, they went a mill where they milled the wheat, they went to the supermarket and bought flour and ingredients, they baked stuff at school, they brought in their own baked stuff, they drew pictures etc. This is 3 or 4 yr olds. They did similar on other topics like energy, or nature.

rabbitstew Sat 08-Dec-12 21:11:07

Blimey, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what APMF says.

seeker Sat 08-Dec-12 21:17:20

I would be too, rqbbitstew, if the idea was leaving children "fallow" until 7. But as Portofino says, that's not what happens.

rabbitstew Sat 08-Dec-12 21:24:30

There seem to be quite a lot of children who have been left "fallow" in the UK until they start school.

rabbitstew Sat 08-Dec-12 21:26:56

There is nothing stopping primary state school reception classes in the UK doing cookery with the children, going on nature walks, even climbing trees - my dss' school does and/or allows all these things (the latter under considerable supervision, however). I don't get where this idea that the UK doesn't ever do this sort of thing with 4-year olds comes from.

Pantofino Sat 08-Dec-12 21:27:08

And I think aged 6 or so, after 3 years of kindergarten - they have learnt how to sit still and pay attention, they are fully toilet trained, they don.t miss mum, they know how they are expected to behave in the classroom etc etc. 4 year olds in the UK are expected to cope with ALL this AND do reading and writing at the same time.

rabbitstew Sat 08-Dec-12 21:30:00

I do know, however, that my dss' school has noticed that year on year, a higher and higher proportion are arriving at school with speech and language delays, unreliable toilet training, unable to count and unable to sit still long enough to be read a story by the teacher. Sorry, I know 4-year olds may not want to sit still to practice phonics, but the majority ought to be able to enjoy sharing a short picture book by that age - that is a FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT, after all, not some cruel punishment.

Pantofino Sat 08-Dec-12 21:39:33

More reason - in my eyes - to start a kindergarten system in the UK. You don.t have to worry about free nursery places and WTC for children over that age. Invest in the fecking education system.

rabbitstew Sat 08-Dec-12 21:41:35

Although as a matter of interest, because I do think 4 is too young for formal school and just results in a stressful year for teachers trying to cope with toileting accidents and incomprehensible speech, etc, without the ratio of staff to children that pre-schools benefit from, when was "reception year" introduced? I didn't start school until I was 5 and I was the very youngest person in my year at school - it started at the equivalent of year 1.

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