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Disruption and poor behaviour in schools.

(48 Posts)
mam29 Thu 06-Dec-12 13:36:36

Wanted to bring up valid points brought up in grammer thread about disruption.

As grammers are only 167 schools in entire uk

uk has rather succesful independant sector.

high number of faith schools.

recent article sabout number of primary kids being expelled worrying.

How do we improve disruption and poor behaviour in schools?

I went to comprehensive where behaviour was dire

lots bullying.
bottom sets were worst

I saw how disruption affected my education and other peoples.

not one person in my geography class got gcse c grade as bevhaviour was so bad most pf time teacher as frogmarching one of boys to head. quite a few had to stand outside. supply teachers run off in tears.
anyone who dared answer teachers questions correctly was picked on and called a swot.

I see my local comp the way the kids behave walking home.
their gcse results are 43%5gcses a-c
conicidence much?

Im not looking foward to secondry applications as guess hard to get accurate veiw from open day which can be false.

whats the recipie for a good school.

Do people decide

faith schhool

must have better behaviour?

lljkk Thu 06-Dec-12 13:50:43

DS went to a private secondary that had all sorts of behaviour problems. I found out later that LEA pays to send especially difficult kids to this private school. DS now back in a bog standard comp and in a high achieving culture there.

Given there are only 167 "grammars", not like many people have the choice?

Our local comp has had typical 43% results too, yet every year they manage to parade at least a few pupils who got all As & A*s in GCSEs, including geography.

Just saying that sweeping generalisations don't lead to useful conclusions.

CarlingBlackMabel Thu 06-Dec-12 16:10:06

DS is in a comp in a non-leafy area of London. The intake matches the area, high FSM (more than 25%), very multicultural, lots of EAL families (more than 25%).

It has very high results for it's intake. More than 70%5 CGSE A-C incl maths and english, and more than 90% excl maths and english.

DS reports no bullying, no persistent disruption. It isn't perfect, there are playground fights, and though the pupils are known for behaving well in the local community, there are outbreaks of firework throwing etc.

I think the factors that support the success of the school are:

-The school is ruthless and relentless in it's discipline procedures. A united front from all staff. Very consistent.

-They are also very hot on rewards, praise and acknowledging good behaviour and achievement.

-They make learning interesting They run lots of partnerships with outside agencies, trips, cross-curricular teaching, and they make sure all pupils can achieve, they place equal emphasis on the non-gcse qualifications they run

-They run a huge range of very attractive before school, lunchtime and after-school activities - everyone is involved in something.

-It has a tight catchment area as do the surrounding primaries, so the vast majority of pupils will see or be seen by someone they know recognises them on their way to and from school. For example, I recognise all the kids who were at DS's primary in the 5 years above him. Primary also had a very tight knit, community feel and strong discipline standards.

TalkinPeace2 Thu 06-Dec-12 16:49:18

private is only an option for those with the money = not around 80% of the population
grammar is only an option for those with them in the area who are not vehemently opposed
faith is only an option for believers or hypocrites

improving behaviour in schools involves politicians butting out and letting heads set policies
and then not have to reorganise the curriculum every year

CarlingBlackMabel Thu 06-Dec-12 17:56:47

"improving behaviour in schools involves politicians butting out and letting heads set policies
and then not have to reorganise the curriculum every year "

Big Cheer to that.

LittenTree Thu 06-Dec-12 19:51:43

And- let's face it- social policy that doesn't actively encourage the conceiving of children otherwise unwanted except for the extra benefits they will generate.

Heads can set policy all they like, but the reality is, a successful educational outcome depends on 3 factors, like, as the Japanese say, a 3 legged stool: child/parent/school. All must be singing from the same hymn sheet. If one is either disengaged or cannot be arsed, you are seriously behind the 8 ball before you begin.

The government may be reorganising the curriculum every 5 minutes, but my DSs' comp adapts every time and still produces 80% inc Maths & Eng.

TalkinPeace2 Thu 06-Dec-12 19:55:54

Good schools with a sound ethos cope.
Especially outside London.

Unfortunately much of policy is set from those who live in Central London, where the LEAs are/were generally poor and the diversity of incomes has led to large numbers at fee paying schools, resulting in many state schools unable to achieve.

Sadly I cannot see the Academy and Free school programmes curing the problem.

maisiejoe123 Thu 06-Dec-12 21:19:07

Ban mobiles in schools, apparently one failing school did recently and it really did improve things. Why on earth are kids allowed to bring them in....

TalkinPeace2 Thu 06-Dec-12 21:20:53

because they get timetable updates by text, and music lesson reminders, and the online system - that they access via their phones - notifies them of homework deadlines

and on the way home, they need their phones if the buses are delayed - esp the ones who live 7 miles away

mam29 Thu 06-Dec-12 22:47:34

Thanks for responses guys interesting.

just grammer thread a reason against comps was low level disruption affecting academics.

My comp was bad realise not all comps are.

but local comp their behaviour can be bad which puts me off and many others as hardly anyone lives my estate sends their kids there .

I guess some schools have perception of being good .

cory Fri 07-Dec-12 00:12:02

No bullying at dc's comp from what they tell me, and behaviour generally very good.

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 09:44:39

The use of mobile or even sight of them is banned at my DSs top-performing comp but the school realise that in these busy, modern times, mobiles are useful tools for DCs travelling to and from school. So they can have them with them but hidden and off.

They also have a sweatshirt and polo uniform, 'not formal' but to be worn properly and correctly.

However, these DC arrive at the school at 11, school-ready and engaged (and it maybe should be added, for fairness, having achieved above NC required levels in Y6 in general). The vast majority are all singing from the same hymn sheet, as are the parents. They know low level disruption and poor behaviour absolutely won't be tolerated. They'd be bollocked at school, then bollocked at home!

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 09:49:03

Any 'selective' school can select out as well as in, remember. We were occasionally made aware of this in my girls GS back in 1973!

The reason many GS have far fewer discipline issues is because many if not all parents have had to focus their DC to even get in, and/or have paid ££ to prep schools or tutors, money they expect to see a return on (ie they have expectations of their DC); by the very nature of being 'GS material', you have a cohort who have the intelligence to grasp, at 13 if not 11, that it's actually all up to them. They work hard, they pass well, they buy themselves choice in their futures. Less clever DC from less focused homes can quite easily leave school at 16 still waiting for someone to hand them their lives on a silver platter.

CarlingBlackMabel Fri 07-Dec-12 10:20:46

just grammer thread a reason against comps was low level disruption affecting academics.

However, children with a potential to try for grammar are the ones least likely to suffer from classroom disruption in a comp because they will be in the top sets and streams where there is more engagement and enjoyment of learning.

It is parents with interested hard working children in middle bands that have most to fear from bad classroon discipline, IMO.

DChigh achieving comp bans phones being turned on during the school day, they can have them with them and use them outside school for travel delays etc.

HelpOneAnother Fri 07-Dec-12 10:36:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 11:38:47

"It is parents with interested hard working children in middle bands that have most to fear from bad classroom discipline, IMO."


The DSs comp loosely sets, where at all. They do in Maths and MFL, but in a few other subjects, they have 'loose' sets in that DS1 is in the second set for Science but is achieving higher than some DC in the 1st set- because the school have assessed his temperament and feel he is happier working near the top of a set, rather than the bottom of a higher set.

As an aside, and to be fair, the school effectively set by exam course. Like most that claim 'not to set'! ie, there'll be triple science classes, and double science classes. There'll be higher maths and foundation maths classes, so the DC are set into exam trajectories, rather than in a sliding scale across the entire year, iyswim.

We chose this school because of its solidly MC ethos (though by no means are all the parents well-to-do). The middling ability DC (such as my DS2) are in academically appropriate groupings but don't suffer from having their lessons disrupted by the 'clever enough but ill-disciplined', or 'stupid and aggressive'.This is because there are very few DC from chaotic homes; very, very few on FSM, (as a measure of poverty and the issues that statistically can be shown to accompany poverty), thus the school is relatively free to get on with teaching rather than parenting their pupils.

CarlingBlackMabel Fri 07-Dec-12 11:49:29

Then maybe setting / streaming is another factor which contributes to both good behaviour and results.

The DCs comp streams (I would prefer setting, but another local school sets so parents can take this into account in preferences), and achievement and behaviour across all ability levels is good. I would expect teaching geared to the speed of a child's learning would improve engagement, for faster and slower learners.

As I say, this in a school with a very mixed demographic - genuinely representing the full socio-economic range.

HelpOneAnother Fri 07-Dec-12 11:49:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

littleducks Fri 07-Dec-12 11:55:10

I sat in on a lesson recently. A yr 8 humanties lesson, not streamed/or ability grouped.

The behaviour was imo very poor but the tacher and other staff thought it was good. Silly faces, turning around, not listening and making loads of noise when teacher left room is apparently now acceptable hmm.

Some of the children couldn't write in sentences, others had a really good grasp of the topic. It was imo impossible to teach them together.

mummytime Fri 07-Dec-12 11:59:32

Exclusion from primary is a red-herring too, it often shows a primary which is not willing, trained or able to deal with the SEN it legally should. My DCs school has never permanently excluded a pupil (in 17+ years). It has also taken on pupils who have been permanently excluded before. It has little disruption, but well experienced staff and enough of them.
It has occasionally had pupils where the school and the parents have agreed the child's needs were better met in a special school.

I wouldn't judge a secondary just on an open day. But also the school which suits one child may not suit another.

Startail Fri 07-Dec-12 12:03:18

It needs a seed change in the attitudes of Governments, teachers and parents.

It needs to be about ensuring that the average and just below average DCs are engaged in education and feel valued.

Set 3 out of 4 shouldn't be allowed to switch off and act up, but they often are.

Ofsted needs to step back, targets need to be meaningful and value add needs scrapping. It's utterly incomprehensible to parents and manipulated by schools.

Reduce the stress from above, let teachers, teach and give senior management the time to deal with discipline issues and support struggling staff.

The HT should be able put their nose round the corner of a noisy class not filling in forms.

SLT should have time to do supply duty, there should be some slack in class teacher timetables for this too.
Outside supply teachers almost always get given the runaround.

The SLT needs to support junior staff, not all teachers are brilliant at discipline, but they can still be good teachers. They need support and time tabling to teach the right groups.

When else fails schools need proper internal and external exclusion facilities, properly staffed and properly funded. Passing disruptive pupils from school to school helps no one!

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 12:21:44

"It needs a seed (sic) change in the attitudes of Governments, teachers and parents"

And also the whole rest of our society that only values academia.

Yes, the schools need to be able to properly discipline students. They need to be able to exclude them to PRU and so forth. The parents need to be made to engage.

And, as I said way back in this- society needs to reverse the trend where our benefits system can, in some cases, be seen to reward the casual conceiving of DC- or at least, no effort made to not conceive DC- as they bring more free money to the parent/s.

And yes, of course I acknowledge the reality of 'learning difficulties' and 'behavioural difficulties'- but I do believe that we have reached a place where every bit of poor behaviour is given 'a label' to excuse it so that 'the syndrome' is at fault, not the DC or its rubbish parents. And yes, I am irritated by the low standard of behaviour that is 'tolerated' and labelled 'good' in many of our schools!

Do you recall that programme about that primary that bravely allowed cameras into the classroom, last year, sometime? It was fascinating and rather disturbing to watch, the constant low level disruption, the constant background noise, DC moving around the classroom, the number allegedly doing 'group work' whilst the teacher moved from group to group- but the camera caught the instant loss of attention the second the teacher moved on, 8 year olds apparently incapable of shutting up or focusing. It was interesting watching the HT 'engaging' with the parent/s of the difficult DC. Softly softly so as not to scare these angry, aggressive, ignorant people off. 'MY DD wouldn't swear!!' <here's the evidence, caught on camera!> shock! SO maybe she shouldn't be down the park with older kids at 9pm on a school-night, dad. These parents seemed quite reasonable, actually but not bloody well grasping that they needed to know where their 8 or 9 year old DD was, and with whom, at 9pm of a school-night- it shouldn't need to be pointed out!

Rant over.

mam29 Fri 07-Dec-12 12:50:30

I sadly have 1st hand experience disruptive child.

step son was always in trouble even in primary and got suspended for 2weeks for attacking teacher. His mum always blaming the school as it was deprived area and fact he could barly read when he left school put it down to bad school , seniors fresh start.

He then got into best secondry out of 3 in his town very academic where he blew that it so many ways.

Ended up in pru educational unit for year.
where he appeared do do and learn nothing
hung about with naughtier boys
worse attitude.
since september hes in comp number 2 with special ed unit.

His mums blamed the teachers, social workers claims he has dyslexia adhd yet hes never been diagnosed.
Its his attitude he swears calls his mum a bitch. right now we not seeing him as his beheviour became too bad around out young children and he was verbally abusive towards them.

It does seem like theres always excuses.
in dds old primary was always same 2boys naughty every single

new school less shouty and strict but better behaviour.

That programme seemed interesting

Maybe I should judge my local comp as bad although 43%gcse pass rate dire but on numerous occasions least more than 10 diffrent kids behaving badly.

Even 1 teacher who worked there said dont go there

cornycarrotshack Fri 07-Dec-12 13:08:29

The majority of children who are excluded from school have special needs - that tells us something

and no diagnosis doesn't mean no special needs - not at all

I've worked in a 'failing school' which was turned around by a brilliant Head. Once that Head left behaviour deteriorated very quickly.

Working in a difficult school is really hard and not all teachers can do it.
I'm very sceptical about whether the new scheme of employing soldiers to work with excluded children will be helpful.

LittenTree Fri 07-Dec-12 13:27:28

corny to stick my neck out here: do you think that some of those 'Special Needs' must have been, given the turn around then fall apart of the school that gained, then lost, a brilliant head- a special need to be disciplined?

This is what I was alluding to earlier. I believe an official 'label' of SN is far too often applied (capitals intended) to hide a reality of piss poor parenting? Yes, that DC does have a special need, s/he specially needs to be taught boundaries, to respect others, etc etc. The fact that teacher brought about vast improvement though presumably not with a vast cash injection (no?) would tend to prove that what many of those DC needed was a firm hand otherwise lacking in their lives?

No soldiers won't necessarily 'turn around' difficult DC- but I'm sure some would really benefit from rigid boundaries, and clearly stated and enforced rules!

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