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Gove's Baccalaureate is dead then.......

(49 Posts)
TalkinPeace2 Wed 05-Dec-12 18:16:26
CBI & Ofqual against it. MPs not happy with him.

EvilTwins Sat 08-Dec-12 21:26:38

I'm not sure anyone who knows anything would try to claim that the current system is perfect, or even close. However, the pace of change, and the fact that things aren't left alone long enough to see if one change makes a difference before the next one is introduced is ludicrous. My main worry with Gove's EBCs is the lack of pilot scheme- what on earth is wrong with trialling something first?

Brycie Sat 08-Dec-12 19:48:25

I'm with you at the moment bridge.

TalkinPeace2 Sat 08-Dec-12 19:43:33

we are slipping down the international tables educationally
I'm yet to see one of those international tables that does not have a significant political bias.

Interesting article I read in the New Scientist about the new Math museum in New York : the USA has top university Math departments - because it imports talent ....

I agree that grade inflation is a serious problem - BUT I genuinely do not think that most employers are not bright enough to work out the reality.

Also, employers got VERY, VERY lazy in the last 20 years.
In the past they took on 16 year olds and were willing to pay to mould them into shape.
Now employers want them free and ready made. And then moan about taxes going up.

I just wish Gove would shut up with new schemes until the current year 10 have completed their linear asessement, no retake, exams with choices based on knowing about the Ebacc

is that really too much to ask?

prh47bridge Sat 08-Dec-12 19:05:08

Actually Gove didn't say that "all is wrong and needs to be revolutionised". The academy programme, for example, was started by the previous government. What Gove has done is put rocket boosters on that programme. Supporters of academies and free schools (which are essentially academies) will say that there is plenty of evidence that they work, both from the UK experience and in other countries. I am neutral on this but, given that academies have support from all three major political parties, it is clearly the way the country is going.

There is plenty of evidence that GCSEs have suffered from grade inflation for years. As for the idea that no-one outside Islington or the "Tory political class" is worried about this, words fail me. I live several hundred miles from Islington and there are many people here of all political colours who have no confidence whatsoever in GCSEs.

The CBI didn't come out in support of the status quo. This is what the CBI actually recommended:

A move from GCSEs in the middle of this decade, but the development of a more rigorous and diverse assessment approach that helps better decision-making by young people at the key points of age 14, 16 and 18 rather than simply substituting GCSEs with a more rigorous exam at 16

So they want a bigger change than the one Gove is making.

I am not saying Gove is making the right changes. I don't know whether or not his prescription is correct. However, we are slipping down the international tables educationally. If we don't change anything we are accepting continued decline.

TalkinPeace2 Sat 08-Dec-12 15:47:38

Gove believes.

any evidence that does not accord with his belief is wrong
there is no evidence in support of much of his beliefs
so he just goes with his whims

bring on the reshuffle.

MsAverage Sat 08-Dec-12 15:30:52

What keeps puzzling me in this country is the speed and scale of changes in public policies. Gove comes to powers and declares that ALL IS WRONG and needs to be revolutionized. Ok, good. What about the people who built this ALL WRONG systems not so far ago? Were they acting not on the basis of sound scientific knowledge? Or their policies were built on vision, not proofs? Is there any chance that Gove also acts on the basis of imagination, not statistics? Why is he referring to an American theorist as to a source of ideas instead of social scientists and government researchers? I feel so much uncomfortable with this baselessness especially because I see how great local education industry is at the level of producing teaching methods.

TalkinPeace2 Sat 08-Dec-12 13:30:54

some of the research is by school .... keep looking .....

nickymanchester Sat 08-Dec-12 10:30:24


''help yourself
I have it downloaded and sorted''

I might be being a bit dumb here but I had a look at the link above and the tables provided there only go down to local authority level, they certainly do not show individual schools, and do not include things like VA.

Do you have another link to the information you were talking about?

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 23:19:10

many of their ratings are 5 years out of date .... before schools becoming academies

I'll stick to the stats
VA over 1000, 5 A-C over 40% : as per the spreadsheet - no 'judgement'

balia Fri 07-Dec-12 23:15:38

OK - and I understand that there are issues with Ofsted judgements and criteria - but they do at least visit all these schools that you are dismissing as not good, they go into classrooms, talk to children...

What methodology are you using to define a school as 'good' or 'not good'?

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 23:09:33

Why on earth would I use "ofsted good" when schools have been inspected over 6 years under 4 different regimens

All medians are comparative - so is median salary - does not make it invalid
there is no "objective" in education

especially with believers like Gove

balia Fri 07-Dec-12 23:07:00

Right - so you're not talking about Ofsted 'good' then? Just your own definition based on?

Also - my apologies, I am not well. that link has over 20 tables and each one has numerous tabs, I'm not going to go through all of that data. I assumed you were using 5A*-C EM as it is a standard measure.

1000 is a median score - it is a comparative measure.

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:40:00

look at the DFE stats

VERY, VERY few schools with VA over 1000 get under 50% A-C all subjects

if you include English and maths that drops, but frankly schools with under 50% and VA under 1000 are not "good"

the database is easy to multi column sort

tricot39 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:35:02

X post!

balia Fri 07-Dec-12 22:34:43

I have no doubt, due to the lateness of the hour and the fact I am glassy with cold/flu, that i am being very stupid. Could you give me a pointer to where the stats are that define 'good' schools as those in which pupils attain 5A*-C grades? I can't see a reference to 'good' anywhere?

Perhaps I should be asking what definition of 'good' you are using?

tricot39 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:34:26

The next general election is scheduled for spring 2015. Our nutty system is not set up to give politicians time. <dont shoot the messenger!> if lots of people lobby their mps that equates to defence - they dont like the idea of not being re-elected. "bodies" of educationalists have less sway than mps fearing for their seat.

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:28:57

PS i'm not British - I have no MP in this country and cannot vote
I have interference without representation :-)

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:27:44

what sort of "defence" do you want?
EVERY professional educationalist (both left and right) - the CBI and the Unions and Ofqual and the Exam boards
have asked him to STOP
and wait for the evidence of his extant changes to pay out

NB although I think he's a fuckwit, I'll give 20% of his ideas a positive spin
but the little shit will not STOP changing things.

DD is sitting the latest (much harder) version of the GCSE - but her results will not be league tabled till January 2015
so he (if he was truly scientific and competent) just shut up till then

or do you not 'believe' in evidence?

tricot39 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:25:00

How many people here have replied to the consultation? And or written to your mp to object?

tricot39 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:22:54

Yup - all underlining his weasily excellence..... Writing him off as a wee man is a mistake. He will push.this through and noone seems to be mounting any sort of credible defence.
<just saying>

DewDr0p Fri 07-Dec-12 22:20:33

Hmm how did we end up with this fuckwit in charge of education?

Every single policy has me shaking my head in despair...

TalkinPeace2 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:19:49

he has ideas - crap ideas, but ideas - the others have NONE so he holds sway in the house of fuckwits commons
I'd like to see him in front of a select committee : Margaret Hodge would have him on toast
note that he does not let John, Jim or Evan interview him on R4

tricot39 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:17:56

* Also, I have a problem with 'he wants to restore public confidence in the state education system', when his priorities seem transparently to involve reducing confidence in it in order to sell it off to his cronies. Looks more like classic asset stripping from here, tbh.*

yup that would be political speak - state what the public want to hear while covertly doing something else grin

germyrabbit Fri 07-Dec-12 22:17:19

god this government is so far removed from the populus it is becoming embarassing

It kind of depends on how you define a good school, doesn't it? If a school has a below-average intake, but gets average results...

Gove seems to me a damning indictment of our weird political system of letting random people with no experience run departments.

"Hey, you've got a degree in philosophy, and have worked as a marketing manager. You should be in charge of the UK's foreign policy" How...why?!

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