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Changes to 11-plus to stop middle-class parents 'buying' access to grammars by hiring tutors

(1000 Posts)
breadandbutterfly Sat 01-Dec-12 21:48:28

Similar article in the Times apparently but paywall.

EdithWeston Sun 02-Dec-12 08:14:18

Bond books certainly did exist in the 70s: I was clearing a cupboard at my DM's and found a pre-decimal one.

EdithWeston Sun 02-Dec-12 08:16:18

" so bypassing the requirement for academies not to be so selective of their intakes"

Faith-based criteria are legal and can be used in the same way by non-academies.

rabbitstew Sun 02-Dec-12 08:19:35

According to the radio article, academies cannot be that selective, which is why the school was set up as a voluntary aided school and THEN plans to academise, rather than setting up as an academy school in the first place - in other words, according to Radio 4, there is a difference...

OneHandFlapping Sun 02-Dec-12 08:21:33

The way to end the advantage that middle class parents have in buying tutoring for their kids for the 11+ is to bring tutoring into the primary school curriculum in year 5 in 11+ areas.

rabbitstew Sun 02-Dec-12 08:22:30

... and also, according to Radio 4, it has caused divisions in the coalition government, as Michael Gove and Vince Cable became personally involved... so don't tell me it isn't divisive or a loophole in the law until you've made a complaint to Radio 4 for inaccurate reporting!

rabbitstew Sun 02-Dec-12 08:30:12

Human nature appears to dictate that those near the top of the pile want to stay there or climb still further and any improvements in the lot of those below them will just lead them to more and more excesses to ensure they remain where they like to be.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 08:32:28

I see this notion of there being " bright underachieving" ( what class?) children denied "opportunity" because other children are tutored - but is there any real evidence for it?

I know the govt and Rowntree roll out figures for the under representation of such children in places like grammar schools but I do not think that is the same thing. Maybe, if we are honest, a large number of these children are sumply not under achieving but lack basic ability? I know its not nice to suggest it but I recall in my old very w/c secondary modern that most of the children we could identify as belonging to this " social class" were in fact not underachieving.

I will say here, I was not "underachieving" either. I was just misplaced.

There is a link between social class and educational sucess and achievement but it is cultural. Maybe we need to stop all this multi cultural valuing all equally and recognise that some cultural values are likely to lead to achievement and promote that and that alone?

So if you want to achieve you find the "right" culture. If not, Ok, but lets not go around talking of under achievement in such situations.

(this btw is at the heart of why I would never place my DS in the state system - he just would not fit in the bog standard state comp in this country).

seeker Sun 02-Dec-12 08:38:33

"(this btw is at the heart of why I would never place my DS in the state system - he just would not fit in the bog standard state comp in this country)."

Why not?

BoffinMum Sun 02-Dec-12 08:42:55

I can think of nothing more nausea inducing than sending my children to a school full of kids who had been crammed for the 11+.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 08:47:15

He is the possessor of the "wrong" culture for state education (as Bernstien would have said) Seeker. Most state schools have a culture which is largely not that my DS has. I will not play "social inclusion" with my childs future.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 08:50:00

I guess by that you mean a prep school BoffinMum. I bet it would surprise you to find out that most preps do not cram! The education is different and it probably lends itslef to developing those skills DC need for "passing" the 11+ but it is not a crammer usually. It may also often be full of DC who have " educational achievement" potential ( cultural mainly) but those factors do not make it a crammar.

seeker Sun 02-Dec-12 08:52:58

So what "culture" does your son possess?

rabbitstew Sun 02-Dec-12 08:53:16

What is the culture for state education? I always felt perfectly happy not being a sheep who copied those around me and I was state educated.

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 08:54:02

Seeker - the same as that of my wife and myself.

ptangyangkipperbang Sun 02-Dec-12 09:00:31

I work in a primary school in a 'disadvantaged' area. From the moment the children walk through the door they are encouraged to aim high. We try to get parents involved but if that doesn't work we do all we can to help them succeed.

Very few, if any, parents could afford a tutor and many don't know about the 11 + system so the school steps in. Staff give up their lunchtime to tutor the children and parents are given key dates and admission info.

We've had fantastic successes. However, the 11+ is never regarded as superior. We have links with the local comps and all pupils are encouraged to go to the school where they will achieve their potential.

seeker Sun 02-Dec-12 09:01:27

Ronaldo- which is?

Firelighters Sun 02-Dec-12 09:03:25

How about they just improve education at primary level and all the way through? That's the only way to get rid of tutors, selection, eleven plus, private schools, grammar schools. Make state education better. In other words, as I read in a wonderful internet Spike or something - Please Teach My Children Some Fucking Stuff.

rabbitstew Sun 02-Dec-12 09:08:57

That isn't the answer, Firelighters, not while some people wish to remove themselves and their children from the majority of other parents and children, because they think the majority will contaminate or corrupt their children with idleness and poor attitudes to education....

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 09:09:41

Seeker - bourgeois (masculine) and bourgeoise (feminine) and intellectual if I have to put a lebel on it.

The chattering and avante garde.

Firelighters Sun 02-Dec-12 09:10:06

I think they sort of do it because on the whole they want a better education.

bamboostalks Sun 02-Dec-12 09:12:04

Ronaldo Am sure you mean that you and your wife value education, want to learn and want your son to mix with those of the same. You feel very sure that this is not the case in the bog standard comps you speak of.

bamboostalks Sun 02-Dec-12 09:12:58

X post. Your answer was so much worse than I even anticipated!

Ronaldo Sun 02-Dec-12 09:13:58

Please Teach My Children Some Fucking Stuff.I think they may already do that!

But what they teach is not the " stuff" of achievement and success. I certainly do not want my DS taught anything "F" ing anyway. smile But maybe that is precisely the difference I am talking about whan I say " possessorof a different culture".

Its not that I cannot swear, its that I make sure its appropriate and in a suitable place.

seeker Sun 02-Dec-12 09:16:28

I've just realised who you are, Ronaldo. I'm out of here.

rabbitstew Sun 02-Dec-12 09:16:47

Ronaldo - missed apostrophes. From you!

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