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Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

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tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 00:56:58

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 21:42:29

I think you missed my earlier post. We have made FOI to the schools to get the actual numbers; however, with the help of parents in many local schools we have a fairly good idea about the number of local children getting into Tiffins.

If you have some statistics, why not present it for all of us.

SoupDragon Fri 27-Apr-12 21:43:11

@soupdragon: Do Sutton parents like that?

I have no idea and, TBH, I don't care. I am not a Sutton parent.

BeingFluffy Fri 27-Apr-12 21:44:05

Well IF your children meet the ability standard why are you complaining? I notice that at 4 miles you are probably further away from the school than the majority of my child's TGS class mates. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the majority of TGS students travel 5 miles or more because that is totally different to my own knowledge as a TGS parent.

Where is the evidence for your 95% figure for other grammar schools or did you just make that up along with your purported groundswell of local opinion against the schools?

I am a bit suspicious as to what is really behind all this. In my opinion, one of TGS's strengths is the ethnic diversity of it's intake. I think the proportion of ethnic minority students at TGS is perhaps greater than the proportion of ethnic minority residents in Kingston as a whole. I assume this is because many successful students come from backgrounds in which education is very highly valued. Is this what is really bothering you - the relatively small number of ethnic minority students who make an effort to travel a long way to an outstanding school?

corlan Fri 27-Apr-12 21:45:33

tiffinboys - I don't have any statistics. I thought you must have and I was interested to know what they are - but it looks like you don't have any statistics either!

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 21:49:26

@ mumofjust1: There are many children who come from Greenford and nearby area, even if they get place in Langley as well. Consequently, the second tier children get into Langley.

Tiffins have regular coaches coming from Greenford/Southall area. If coaches can come to Kingston, coaches can go from Kingston too, if other grammars were also open selective. But many of other grammars, would not even allow to take their entrance test, what to talk of place.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 21:57:02

@beingfluffy: No, we don't have any agenda other than that Kingston and nearby children get same preference as the children of other grammar areas have. What do you find wrong with that?

I think, you have not been to Kingston area, otherwise you would know that large ethnic population lives here. I need not say more. In my children's year group, majority of children are non-white, if that's what you want to know. All of these children would benefit if Tiffins bring in same rules as most other grammars.

corlan Fri 27-Apr-12 22:01:06

Kingston is one of the whitest places in London - What are you on about?? confused

(Unless I've got really confused and we're talking about Kingston Jamaica)

breadandbutterfly Fri 27-Apr-12 22:01:50

I used to live in Ealing and know there are no good localschools - why the hell shouldn't they apply to Tiffins?

Why do you assume your child should have a right to a place at a top school just because you live locally? If your child genuinely has met the standard as you say then they will get a place, so no problem - I assume your child has met a rather lower standard hence the moaning at the school.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 22:14:37

If Ealing doesn't have good schools, then is it fault of Kingston children that they should keep all doors open? Ask your LA or the Government to build some good one or even a grammar school there.

There were over 1300 grammars at one time. Our Labour government (Shirley Williams was the Incharge of Education - now sitting with Liberals , who also oppose grammar schools) closed these and now there are only about 160 left.

Next election, vote for the party that would build and support good schools in your area.

BeingFluffy Fri 27-Apr-12 22:19:16

I note your comments about the coaches (which I have never actually seen) from Greenford and Southall. I doubt you have ever been to TGS because you would have seen the numbers of girls walking home. Your comments about the school are complete and utter crap.

I don't expect my local church school to change it's rules because it is an outstanding school and I want my child to go there; why should the Tiffin schools change just because your kids aren't clever enough to get in? If you really want them to be local schools, why not two miles or even one mile - oh because you are four miles away, it has to be a five miles radius!

Your evidence is non existent for the opinion of local people; the proportion of children from outside 5 miles of Kingston and the 95% of grammar schools that you state have a catchment. Your whole "campaign" is based on jealously and bitterness. I am really glad that my child has had the chance to go to TGS, and I don't think it should just be confined to local residents. There are no grammar schools in most of London. It should be based on ability not geography.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 22:30:43

@BF: I keep ignoring your comments about my children but you don't seems to get any sense of manners of discussing on open forum.

Neither I would call your ideas as crap, as no matter how wrong, you are entitled to your views. If you don't know what decency is then I can't help.

We are campaigning for all the children in Kingston and nearby areas. About the grammar schools which have catchement policies, you could get the names of atleast 70 of these in my original post. You could go their website and chech it out yourself.

You also forget that I have not proposed catchment of any radius. We have proposed 80% places on proximity based on achieving minimum score, just like in Kent (with 31 grammars on this criteria). We don't see any difference in ability of a child scoring 225 (who doesn't get the place, even if living next to the School) and the child scoring 226 who comes from far away, say Greenford, travelling for hours.

SardineQueen Fri 27-Apr-12 22:34:38

1. Who are "we"
2. "Why should we move, when we have a grammar school with 4 mile radius and If our children meet the ability standard...... " Well if they didn't get in then they obviously didn't meet the standard confused
3. It's not unusualllll <channels tom jones> for places to be based on exam performance. Really, it isn't.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 22:45:05

@SardineQueen; Why does then most of the grammars have catchment/proximity criteria? What's wrong if we want the same for Tiffins?

BeingFluffy Fri 27-Apr-12 22:57:37

Tiffinboys - if you come on to a forum and spout a load of rubbish i.e. that most girls at Tiffin are from outside the area, bussed in from Greenford or wherever, don't have after school clubs because they live too far away and too tired to do their homework because they are exhausted; all of which I know to be totally and utterly untrue, I call it whatever I want. I am a Tiffin parent you are not - and apparently not likely to be unless you can change the rules. Your sole purpose seems to be to manipulate the rules to give yourself the best advantage.

I do not live in or near Kingston and do not want to; my child is one of those with a long commute because we live in a non grammar school area. She beat the competition to get in and is doing well. Why does she have less right to go to a great school than a child in Kingston or Richmond? I don't object if people want to travel across London to attend the outstanding church schools in my area.

I do not believe your campaign has widespread local support; I do not believe you or frankly even care if 95% of grammar schools have catchments and I know for a fact that your estimates about the number of non local children are wrong.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 23:07:25

Firstly, congratulations to your daughter. There is no argument about Tiffins being the outstanding schools.

Secondly, I have not discussed your children, nor i have moaned about my children.

Thirdly, I can understand that all of those who live far away from Kingston have vested interest in keeping Tiffins 100% Open selective.

Same way, it is in our local children's interest to have some priority for them and we are campaigning for this objective.

You are arguing for your interest and we have to look for our interest. Afterall, none of you ever reply to my question that why do most grammars have catchment/proximity criteria. Why Tiffins should not have these rules? Are we responsible if your area doesn't have a grammar school?

Metabilis3 Fri 27-Apr-12 23:09:26

@tiffinblys super selective grammars don't. That's part of what super selective is. If you take the superselectiveness away from Tiffins then it would probably be less attractive to some people. Including possibly you.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 23:19:02

There is no need for Tiffins to be super-selective. These were doing fine even when these were catchment schools till 1991. Even at that time, these were heavily over-subscribed and it was an honour to get place here.

HandMadeTail Fri 27-Apr-12 23:20:12

Your opening post is inaccurate re the Bromley and Kent grammars.

St Olaves has open selection, as the school moved from Lewisham borough to Bromley borough, and it was deemed unfair for the boys who would have been able to go to the school to become ineligible because the school had moved.

Newstead has an open selection, for girls living within a 9 mile radius of the school. As it is about 9 miles from central London, this encompasses a huge number of potential students. Girls living beyond this can also apply, but in practice are never offered places. Selection is based on test scores only, ie looked after children and siblings are given no priority.

Kent grammars for boys such as The Judd, Skinners and Dartford Grammar are all super selective, with an open selection policy. The cut off score for these in recent years has been about 417, from a maximum of 420.

Dartford girls grammar, on the other hand, could not even offer places to all in area girls this year. Selection there is based on passing the test (score of 360) and living close to the school.

I have a DC at one of these schools, and know quite a number at my DCs school, as well as some of the other super selectives. I also know children at the bexley grammars which admit the top 25%, mostly based on proximity to the school, after the 11+ test pass.

The two types of grammar are entirely different. You would find that the Tiffins would be very different schools if they were not super selective.

SardineQueen Fri 27-Apr-12 23:37:21

Good for your DD, beingfluffy smile

Strong smell of sour grapes on this thread.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 23:41:31

@HMT: Catchment is a catchment, whether it is 9 miles or 5.25 km. About Kent, if you read all of my posts I have mentioned 31 of the Kent grammars have proximity criteria. Only 3 have become super-selectives recently after becoming Academies, I suppose.

If Tiffins become non-super selective and less attractive for those who decline other grammars place (even if close to theit homes), still these would be great schools for the local children.

Secondly, Until all grammars become open selective, our proposal is 20% open selective for very bright children and then 80% on proximity to those who achieve minimum score, say 220. If you see the raw score data of Kent or Buckinghamshire, you will agree that 220 at Tiffins is far difficult to achieve than else where due to the nature of their tests and cohort. I read at some other forum that about 80% raw score would get full 140 in Kent. If correct, this would be unimaginable at Tiffins.

Also we don't think that most places will be taken by nearby children; only children living very far away would not get place and I estimate that, looking at the cutoffs at TS of 229 currently, that children as far away as 7 miles or over would get in. Of-course, those who live more than 10 miles away would have to look elsewhere.

tiffinboys Fri 27-Apr-12 23:46:11

@SardineQueen: My morals stops making comments about certain type of fish.

SardineQueen Fri 27-Apr-12 23:50:25


I see.

Have you and your group (this mysterious "we") considered setting up a free school?

I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve on MN.

HandMadeTail Sat 28-Apr-12 00:05:06

St Olaves has always had open selection, for the reason given in my post above. The Judd, Skinners and Dartford Grammar were super selective before the recent introduction of academies.

Newstead was established to give Bromley girls the same opportunity to attend a grammar as Bromley boys, once st Olaves had moved to the borough. I appreciate your point about catchment, but I doubt many girls could come from much further away than the 9 mile radius.

tiffinboys Sat 28-Apr-12 00:16:10

@SardineQueen: Good question: No, 'we' have not considered setting up the Free School. Not enough resources (financial, or otherwise) at our disposal. But we would support if any such school is being set up.

For your second question, we achieved what we wanted. We generated a good debate and we now know that arguments would be made against our proposal and how to deal with those.

tiffinboys Sat 28-Apr-12 00:22:15

@HMT: some children comes to Tiffins from over 15-20 miles away. Quite a load comes from Harrow/Greenford. They even have arranged a coach. Few are said to be coming from Guildford and beyond.

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