Nursery teacher says she has had

[Greensleeves]

I've just picked DS1 up from nursery and was summoned in by his nursery teacher. She said she had had a terrible morning with him, that he had been refusing to sit down at "group time", screaming, refusing to co-operate, struggling when restrained, really difficult behaviour. She didn't say anything about hitting other children or her - I think it was just "NO!!" type behaviour. He has had a bit of trouble getting used to the idea that he has got to sit down and behave as part of a group - he's only been at nursery a couple of weeks - but she seemed to think today was MUCH worse. She was quizzing me about "things at home", as though she thought he was disturbed! He has been really bolshy and difficult over the weekend, but I manage to handle him OK! I don't know what to make of it really, and I'm dreading sending him again tomorrow!

[nutcracker]

If he has only been there a couple of weeks then I think she should give him a break.

[Feistybird]

how old is he?

[coppertop]

It's madness expecting him to be able to sit down with the others etc if he's only been there a couple of weeks. It sounds as though they're expecting too much too soon.

Everyone has their 'off' days. It sounds like your ds probably had one today.

[Aloha]

My ears are pricking up at the term 'restrained' - what exactly did she mean? Wouldn't you struggle if you were 'restrained'? It's what humans do. I think the normal way of handling this is to encourage joining in but not enforcing it - it's only nursery! I would be more concerned about the nursery than your ds tbh. Is it state pre-school?

[coppertop]

I missed the bit about him being restrained!

[Greensleeves]

He was three at the end of September. She keeps going on about how he's "very able" but she won't put her foot down with him, she just sort of squeaks at him and asks his permission all the time, IYKWIM. He is bright, and strong-willed, and argumentative, but he's very kind-hearted and knows when he's being naughty too. I'm not sure she really understands how to handle him... in fact I can't believe all the other children respond to all that cooing and coaxing!!

[Greensleeves]

I think the restraining bit is that if he won't come and sit with the group, she tries to get him to sit in her lap, and he screams and struggles and shouts "NO, NO, don't want to join in, I don't like group time!" and all that sort of thing. At home I would handle him very differently.

[mszebra]

I really don't like the restraining bit. Doesn't seem appropriate at all. Having sat-in on many playgroups in recent years, I don't think any of them would have handled the situation that way.
Could you wait until September to try nursery again? then

[NotQuiteCockney]

The restraining sounds OTT to me. I'd expect a nursery teacher to restrain a child only for his safety, or for the safety of others.

Restraining him to make him participate in group time sounds counterproductive, and really unpleasant for all involved.

[chipkid]

I have a ds like yours-I was alwys being pulled up at nursery about the fact that he was a handful!
He is-that is his nature-some children aren't compliant they like to test everything and everyone!!!
a good nursery will know this and develop strategies for dealing with different children
In the end the nursery became more proactive with ds-stopped leaving him so much to his own devices-gave him jobs to do in the office like helping to photocopy etc-really worked with him
turn the tables on them-ask them what their strategies are for handling a testing three year old!

[Greensleeves]

I don't think she's manhandling him... I think she's just got it into her head that if he doesn't want to join in and sit still, then he must be "anxious" and must want to sit in her lap! I wish she would be verbally a bit firmer with him and not do all that high-pitched cooing at him, he's not a baby, we don't treat him like one at home, and he obviously thinks he can walk all over her. I've tried politely suggesting that she be a bit more "proactive" with him, but she doesn't really listen.

I did think about pulling him out - but the reason I sent him was because he's very bright and easily bored, he was starting to get very fed up at home with me and DS2 - his language is markedly more advanced than his peers (which is all very nice but comes with its own problems!)he's already starting to read/add/subtract, and I thought he needed other children and a bit more to fill his days!! He's going to be one of the oldest children in his class at school unfortunately, because he was born at the end of September, so I suppose I can expect the boredom and playing up to get worse. I'm really p*sed off it's not working, I thought he would love it! He is a handful, but if he's properly handled by someone firm but fair, he's not as bad as some!

[Angeliz]

I worked with very violent children and the very very last measure is to restrain!
Cannot for the life of me see why someone would restrain a 3 yaer old. (unless he was attacking someone or in danger himself)

[Greensleeves]

No, she said that if he wasn't happy to sit with the others she tends to try and get him to sit in her lap or right next to her instead, in case he needs the "extra reassurance". She did say that once he had wrested himself away from her and run off, she left him to it and just praised him if he came back. I don't think she was really using brute force, but she did say she had had a "terrible morning" with him screaming and shouting and refusing to co-operate.

What worries me is that she seems to building it up as a real behavioural problem - questioning me about how things are at home, etc - and I just can't see why, really. He's a normal, very bright, rather strong-willed, excitable little boy who doesn't like being told what to do! Is that so unusual?

[crumpet]

Greensleeves, I haven't posted on your other threads as I can't better the advice and support you have had, but is this new behaviour? The teacher's reference to things at home made me wonder whether there was any chance your ds has picked up on your recent stress.

[Greensleeves]

I suppose he may have. I hate the idea, because I have been trying so very hard not to make it noticeable to him. We've been doing all the things we usually do and trying not to discuss it all in front of him - but he's pretty sharp.

If it is that, it's likely to get worse before it gets better, because the other problems are nowhere near resolved and aren't likely to just go away. What can I do? I've had a little talk to him, and he says he's not worried about anything but he is a bit tired. How can I help him?

[emily05]

3 year olds are buggers! sometimes my ds (who is also 3) is a darling. He will sit still, cooperate, tidy toys - anything you want him to do.

Then there are weeks when he is a horro. Lots of "nos" and tantrums. This is what toddlers do. They are struggling for independence. Your ds has only been there a short period of time - he is getting used to the rules.

I think that the nursery have totally overreacted. If he was bullying other children and wrecking the place then fair enough.
I think that perhaps at worst she should have suggested that you practice with him sitting in a circle with you and sing some songs - so when he is asked to do it at nursery he is used to it. Seems to me that the nursery seem totally unable to cope with toddler behaviour. At ds nursery when one of the kids play up they deal with it great (and lighthearted)

Please dont think that it is anything you have done. I would have a think about this particular nursery and perhaps look for another one.
At 3 they are only just getting used to being part of a 'group'. they are expecting too much.

[sunnydelight]

Maybe this just isn't the best nursery setting for him? (I'm assuming - sorry if I'm wrong - that he's in a "nursery class"). I have my doubts about the appropriateness of this for a lot of kids as it seems a lot more regimented than other nursery settings, and generally the staff:child ratio is higher than ideal for this age group. Do you have an option of finding something for him that would be more of a gentle introduction into the whole education thing? I think they are being unduly harsh on him bearing in mind he's only been there a short while.

[Hallgerda]

I would certainly consider moving him. DS2 went to a playgroup where the playleader was a complete wet echo - he played up, refused to join in, claimed he needed to sleep if anyone tried to put the slightest pressure on him. He certainly didn't respond to coaxing. He wasn't there very long because a place came up at the school nursery; when he got there his behaviour improved significantly.

Both DS1 and DS3 went to playgroup/preschool groups run by the kind of dragon playleaders who take no nonsense, ensure the parents behave (I'll spare you the details on where that comment comes from!) but are loved and respected by the children - yes, even bright and troublesome three-year-olds. So I would look first at the personality of the playleader and second at the type of setting.

When DS2 was having his problems at playgroup there were absolutely no family problems, so I really don't think you should worry that your problems with your mother are the root of your son's problems at nursery.

[FrannyandZooey]

We-ell, IME even small changes at home can lead to noticeable changes in a child's behaviour in childcare, so I think what's going on at home may well be affecting him, Greensleeves, but please don't feel bad about that. It is normal that how you are feeling is going to affect him even if you are doing your utmost to hide it - children are very sensitive to what is not said, things like body language, tension in the atmosphere, etc. Particularly if you are very close with your children as I know you are. Don't take it as a criticism of your parenting, just a reflection of the difficulties you are all going through at the moment. When children are young, a problem for the mother is a problem for the child IMO - as part of a symbiotic relationship they can't help but experience your hard times to some extent. There are ups and downs in everybody's lives and children can learn valuable lessons from seeing us deal with conflict and pain.

Having said that, it doesn't sound like the teacher is handling it in the best way. It sounds like ds needs a place to let off a bit of steam at the moment and nursery could be the perfect place if they are prepared to give him a long leash so to speak I would speak to the teacher again, say yes things are a bit dodgy at home, and could they make allowances and not pressurise him for now. Unless you think she is just too cr*p to deal with it in which case I would take him out and look around elsewhere. I don't think it is reasonable to expect all new children to conform in a group this early, and restraining does sound punitive to me, even if it's dressed up as 'helping with his anxiety'.

[colditz]

I would fgo and talk to her, and be quite firm, and say that you agree that children should be restrained if they are endangering or hurting someone else or themselves, and not otherwise.

Explain to her "My son does not like to be held still. It is not anxiety, it is the physical act of restraint that he dislikes, so we don't do it at home, we do X to get him to cooperate, and I think that would work here too."

She sounds like a wet hen.

[rummum]

I'm sure that when the nursery teacher said restraint she didn't mean a half nelson... but saying she had a "terrible morning" with him is a bit OTT

As he's only been going a couple of weeks I guess they are expecting him to sit for a bit longer.. (if at all) at 3 though the child only has 3 minutes concentration span.
also IMO things changing at home do affect the childrens behaviour...

Good luck with the nursery teacher... I find it hard to believe they haven't come across a willfull child before and have some good stratagies already in place...

I work in a pre-school and if we get a willfull child we always ask the parents advice on how they deal with their child.. (after all they know their child best)
does he have a key worker that has got to know him?
we also tend to use bribes such as stickers for good behaviour... and lots of praise...

he needs to understand that he has to join the group time.. after all you can't have 15/20 children refusing to cooperate and copying his behaviour.

[emily05]

but if he has only been at the nursery for two weeks how does she know that his behaviour has changed? iyswim My ds can be a bugger and our homelife is fine. If a quiet child suddenly oneday becomes disruptive - then fair enough - but she has only know him for 2 weeks!

[Hallgerda]

Greensleeves, have you talked to your son about what he's doing at nursery and why? I know it can be hard to get much sense out of that age group, particularly if your child knows he hasn't behaved very well and doesn't want to admit to the details, but it would seem worth a try. If you're too close to the situation, perhaps he might talk to your husband?

[Greensleeves]

Thanks for all the responses, it's great to have different perspectives. It is all a bit baffling when it's new territory for all of us (and we have got colossal upheaval going on elsewhere in the family).

I did have a quiet chat to DS1 about what was causing him to get cross and shout at nursery. It took a bit of time, but he did eventually tell me that he gets scared around the carpet times, he said "because there's too many children" and that when he feels scared he gets cross and shouts. There are actually only about eight children in his little group, but I think he gets anxious about not being the centre of attention because he is so used to it at home. It definitely seems to be anxiety rather than aggression.

I think Franny's right, it's inevitable that he will be aware of my mood and the fact that Grandma is off the scene atm. I'm not taking it out on him, or letting it affect his routine, but I can't pretend I'm a bundle of jollity at the moment, and he is very perceptive and sensitive (maybe all children are). And his little brother has been coming on in leaps and bounds lately, which is great for us but probably a bit intimidating for DS1 - things like DS2 starting to eat with a spoon by himself, which erode DS1's sense of being special because he's the big boy.

I don't know if it's silly but I made up a little simple ditty which just says "X is calming down now, lalala, calming down..." and told him I put Mummy magic into it, so that if he sings it to himself when he gets scared or cross, even if Mummy isn't there it will make him feel better. I also told him to go to his teacher at the start of group time and tell her that he feels a bit scared and would she please look after him.

When I picked him up today she said he had had a much better morning and although he was still quite wilful he had been more able to "compromise, talk about it and calm down". I think next week when I feel a bit less fragile myself I might arrange a proper meeting to discuss managing difficult behaviour and reporting it to me.

I think I will leave him at that nursery for a while longer, because it is a brand new nursery/preschool with great facilities and he says he likes it there. I will keep a close eye on things though. At least until this horrible situation with my mother has calmed down and I can see how he is when we're not all under strain. I'm sure there must have been some effect on him - I do my best, but the atmosphere in this house at the moment is not great.

Thanks so much for all your advice and thoughts, it really has been very helpful.

[bobbybobbobbingalong]

The song is a great idea. I work with a preschool using music with the children who are having sequencing problems or are shy or overwhelming, and we make up songs to help them with their behaviour.