How important is early years education- private v state school debate (again)

[cocopops]

Ok, here goes......

We live in the catchment area of a very good local primary school-HMIE reports are good, it serves as a "feeder" for local independent schools and my husband went there! The local secondary is ok but nothing great so at the least we'd like to send DD to independent school for secondary.

Both my DH and I work full time- the local school does not have an after school club so this would mean sending DD to after school elsewhere(kids are basically bused to afterschool by private company to the local secondary school). I have not yet been round the local primary but requests to send out information have been ignored which has bothered me a bit.

We have done the "tours" of our 2 local independent schools and have been very very impressed at everything (including academic results) and have put DD's name down from the pre school year for both schools. If money were no object, we would send her to one of these schools from the pre school year without a doubt. (We are not planning on having any more kids).

However, money is an object and we are faced with a dilemma of whether to send DD to the local school until primary 6/7 (we are in scotland) and then hope that she is bright enough to pass the entrance test for one of the other schools or whether to struggle a bit financially for the rest of our lives (!) and send her to independent from pre school or primary 1.

Things I am grappling with:

1. How important are the first few years of education - are they more or less important than later years?
   
   
2. Is it putting too much pressure on a kid at that age if we make her sit an entrance test to get into p6/7 at an independent school?
   
   
3. Is it unfair to uproot her from friends made at state school and place her in an unfamiliar environment- most friends I have who went to independent school said the newcomers never really fitted in.
   
   I realise this is a touchy subject but am genuinely interested in views.

[wenceslaligo]

early years education is HUGELY important - more important than at any other stage as this is when kids learn the most.

however, that doesn't mean you need the private primary - because one of the most important aspects of a child's education is their home life. no need to force her to play with flashcards and abacuses or listen to mozart, but if you read to/with her a lot, take her to museums/zoo/countryside at weekends, do things like gardening, cooking etc with her at home, and so on, then combined with a good state primary you will be giving her an excellent early years education without having to pay private school fees.

i do think intensive testing and taking her away from friends at a young age would also be hard for her, and unnecesary.

[wenceslaligo]

oops i now see you meant uprooting her from friends if she swaps to private school later on. weeeeell kids have to make new friends when they move house, these days kids are always changing schools anyway - i don't think that need be a big issue.

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[TracyK]

Where are you cocopops? We are moving home to scotland next year and are trying to decide where to live in conjunction with what schooling ds is going to need in the future.
So I am interested in all your answers too.

[Blandmum]

I teach in secondary and I would say to you that if you are only going to spend out on one phase of education, the money is best spent in primary.

I spend a lot of time with smashing kids who are alweays trying to fill gaps and catch up on stuff that they don't understand.

The foundadtion is essential

If the governemant wants to improve learning they need to put the money into Primary

[Blandmum]

I teach in secondary and I would say to you that if you are only going to spend out on one phase of education, the money is best spent in primary.

I spend a lot of time with smashing kids who are alweays trying to fill gaps and catch up on stuff that they don't understand.

The foundadtion is essential

If the governemant wants to improve learning they need to put the money into Primary

[LIZS]

What age is Primary 6/7 is that around 11/12 ? We're gambling on investing in independent primary education as we felt that class size, varied curriculum, on site facilities and diverse opportunites were important for our kids atm. Not entirely sure how we will finance this long term but hope that with a solid foundation they will be able to build upon it regardless.

[dexter]

Good luck with your decision - it's so difficult, isn't it. I do agree that the early years education is very important - HOWEVER there's nothing to say that the state primary isn't going to deliver a damn good early education. I would visit and re-visit until you feel you have a good understanding of whether it would be good.
My view is that it should be easier to move from state to private, in that classes in private will be smaller and there should not be a whiff of bullying a 'newbie'. MUCH more difficult to move from Private to State. So if you start in private, you would prob. have to keep her there, which is the bit where the financial commitment comes in!
I also think from my heart that you need to judge what YOUR child needs. I have sent my son to a little private nursery instead of local pre-school and am just starting to wonder if it's the wrong place for HIM. It's very controlled, very teacher-led, and not very accepting of the slight difficulties he's experiencing in socialising: he's sociable outside, so obviously is not yet comfortable to be himself there. Maybe he'll be happier at the local pre-school and infant school where there seems (from my visit today) to be more acceptance of 'difference' and less of a pressure to conform. So I would definitely weigh up the state and private schools with this in your mind. Just because private is seen as 'best' doesn't mean it will be best for every child.
Hope this is of some use?

[Enid]

I would have thought the other way round tbh

Send them to a goodish state primary and fill in the gaps yourself then private

well thats what we are planning. also you will be so spoilt by luxy private primary the state secondary will come as a terrible shock!

tbh, I truly believe that if you have bright kids then state secondary is fine and they will do well wherever. If your kids are on the average side, private secondary is probably better for them.

[cocopops]

I had suspected that early years was v important but haven't been able to find any research to back this up..

TraceyK- we are in edinburgh- huge % of kids here go to private school- around 25% I think.

Liz3- P6/7 is around 11/12 years here-p7 is last year of primary.

Socci- we don't have grammar schools up here so I think if we go down the private route, it would be for all schooling as the stage l'm particuarly worried about is secondary. I remember what my state secondary school was like and shudder to think what they are like nowadays 20 years on!

[Blandmum]

thb, if they make the jump to state school at secondary Iit often goes well. I have taught a few people that shifted from to state school at year 7 and they settled in well.

All the kids are feeling new and unsure at that point, so the ex pirvate kids don't stand out much.

[Blandmum]

And would agree with Enid that very bright kids tend to do very well wherever you put them

[Enid]

v interesting martian bishop

it seems a bit mad for us to go private at primary as dd1s school is so high up the league tables and just round the corner

although dd2s private prep nursery is stunning - she has learnt an incredible amount of numeracy and phonics in the first term alone!

[Enid]

trouble is, dd1 is showing signs of distinct averageness (academically, of course she is fantabulous in every other way) so will prob need private secondary. dd2 is a bit of a brainaic so would be fine at state hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Blandmum]

Enid, I agree with you totaly. If you have a good primary in the state sector, why pay? I know I wouldn't Wish I had the option.

the school my two go to tends to get very good results at GCSE/ A level. Then take kids who would get a d/e in state school and get them a c/b. This isn't due to better teachers but because there are smaller classes and a better ethos....ie the kids expect to pass and behave accordingly.

I've taught too many kids who could get a c grade but just can't be arsed and would rather get and a* is arsing around

[Enid]

our local state secondary has pretty average GCSE results but really good A level results. confusing.

[Blandmum]

Do lots of kids leave and go to collage? Are they just left with the more 'academic' kids?

[Lizzylou]

My High school was the same, Enid, it was because a lot of the brightest pupils went off to the grammar school in the next town or to Private sixth forms. I stayed put, only so I could be "Top of the Class"!

[marialuisa]

I have to admit to being very "precious" about choosing my DD's school . We live in catchment for what is, on paper, a great primary school. 30s in the league tables etc. However when I dutifully plodded round it, it was completely the wrong place for my DD.

I have to confess that the fact that the afterschool club is run in DD's private school, by the teachers and classroom assistants is a real relief. At 4.5y they still seem very little and although DD is as confident as they come, I don't think she'd be as content at an afterschool club she was bussed to. I was told off yesterday for being too early to pick her up!

[CarolinaMoon]

my school was the opposite - great GCSE results, v average A-levels. They did it mostly by not letting the less able kids do many GCSEs so their results wouldn't drag down the average. A-levels they probably let too many people do, to keep the sixth-form impressively large.

[julienetmum]

We had the same sort of dilemma. We had dd's name down for an excellent local state nursery. It didn't feed into any particular primary school and our local primary did not have it's own nursery.

However although she was entitled to pre-school funding the term after she was 3 the LEA rules stated the nursery could only take children the September after they were 3. As dd's birthday is October we felt she needed to go somewhere earlier. i tried to put her name down for the playgroup next door to the primary school but they were full with an 18 month waiting list (my friend waited the 18 months and then got offered just 2 afternoons per week which would have interefered with my then 7 month old ds's naptimes and other stuff)

Meanwhile I got a letter from the nursery to say despite excellent OFSTED reports, a petition from parents and a campaign led by our local councillor they were being closed so there would be no place for dd. She would have to wait until she was almost 5 and could start reception class.

As a result of this we went to visit the newly opened nursery department of the local prep school. We fell in love with the place and she will be staying there. There will actually be less pressure for her there as they do not do SATS and preparation for the 11+ is limited to familiarisation with non verbal etc papers.

[Blandmum]

carolinamoon, you often get a dip in Aesults if the kids are very well taught at GCSE. The tendency is to teach them to pass the exam rather than to thing (crap I know, but I am guilty of this, you want the kids you teach to do well).

When they go on to A level they are not used to applying their knowledge and their marks suffer. The gap between GCSE and A level is bigger than the gap between the old O levels and GCSE (IMHO). We train a lot of kids to 'get' a B, but in fact they are really more like C grade students.....and this shows up at A level

[CarolinaMoon]

that's interesting MB - i was obv being too cynical

[motherinferior]

I think that according to DP's Education colleagues the actual school makes less difference than you'd think in early years, as opposed to home environment. Sadly, this means that despite attending an excellent (state) primary this clearly means that the Inferiorettes' chances are stuffed.