Parental responsibility

[Dosmamas]

My partner and I are TTC. We aren't married or civil partnered and although we are planning on it we aren't going to be legally bound before any baby is concieved.

We originally wanted to civil partner but strictly because that would mean I go on the birth certificate. As we made the initial arrangements to get that sorted we both got cold feet. It didn't feel right, it felt fraudulent as we don't want to get married for these reasons we want to do it in our own time.

As the non carrying mum, not legally partnered to the birth mum what legal options do I have. I want as close to equal parental rights as the birth mum as I can get. My partner has suggested applying for parental responsibility after the birth of our future baby and that will give me equal parenting rights. But if for any reason we break up will I be able to apply for custody of the child? Is it really the same as being named the second parent on the birth certificate (which I was will re-register as when we are officially married)

[PotteringAlong]

Just get married. It’s an easier and faster legal hoop.

[Persipan]

Are you looking at treatment through a clinic or something more informal?

[Dosmamas]

@PotteringAlong we have had this same chat tonight and whilst we know it's the easiest route. We don't want to do it that way. We want to do it the proper way which isn't just for two names on the birth certificate. I will be happy if a parental responsibility agreement gives me the same right as her in the decision making for the child. Obviously from a more negative point of view I want to do what's safest for me as a parent. I want security that doing it this way would mean that if god forbid we ever split up I have the same rights to custody as the birth mother. We will get married down the line but we need to prepare financially. We can't do both, prepare financially for a baby and a wedding. We are 34, right now the baby making comes first.

[Dosmamas]

@Persipan we are using a donor who is a friend of friend. We are not concerned at all about him wanting custody. Neither of us think with any uncertainty that he will be a problem in the future. I don't even think he knows our last name and vice versa. We will find that out if we are lucky to conceive.

[titchy]

Ffs get married. For all your sake - including your child's. What if the worst thing happens and your dp dies post-partum? The kid won't be yours, or anyone's....You don't need to prepare financially to get married. It's a hundred quid.

And I hope you intend to be a bit more certain about the donor...

[HDready]

The HFEA has a lot of helpful information about this - www.hfea.gov.uk/treatments/explore-all-treatments/becoming-the-legal-parents-of-your-child/

In short, there is statute that gives you the right to have parental responsibility but you absolutely need to agree this with your partner in writing before treatment starts. The link has good information (including a helpful leaflet) and the clinic you are having treatment should discuss it with you too.

I do not know if the law applies if you have informal treatment no provided at a licensed clinic.

[Persipan]

Yeah, the reason I was asking is not so much whether he'd want to claim parental responsibility as, if you went through a clinic, you'd sign paperwork which would automatically make you the second legal parent. Whereas, doing it at home, you aren't and will need to take extra steps to make that the case.

If I were you, I'd take some specialist legal advice before proceeding any further, just to get everything squared away.

[Persipan]

@HDready that's only if you have treatment through a clinic; it doesn't apply to informal arrangements such as the one the OP and her partner are using.

[june2007]

Why are you having a child together if your not commited to each other? Yes you can apply for parental rights after marriage. Don't get married because of the baby if your not happy.

[ArnoldBee]

Get married- you don't even have to tell anyone and then have a big fancy wedding later.

[BlueBirdGreenFence]

If you don't use a clinic AND be married/civil partnered then you have no legal claim to the child. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Also there is a great podcast called #If these Ovaries Could Talk". It's made by two (American) lesbians who talk with either an expert or someone about LGBT baby making. It's really informative but also eye-opening about issues you probably haven't thought of.

[Dosmamas]

@june2007 who said we aren't committed to each other? I'm saying that getting married for the sake of a birth certificate is not our dream wedding/marriage ideal. I'm asking if a parental responsibility agreement which i need a lawyer to obtain is as legally binding as marriage and has anyone used one before.

[BlueBirdGreenFence]

I don't think you'll be able to get parental rights in this specific scenario unless the donor waives his rights away and then your partner agrees for you to adopt. This can only be done after the baby is born. Each to their own but there's no way I would risk either the donor wanting a relationship (to my exclusion) or my partner having 100% legal responsibility and the active power to deny me any for the sake of a fancy wedding.

[JoxerGoesToStuttgart]

For someone who claims to be determined to protect their own rights wrt contact/parental responsibility you sure are doing everything possible to make it incredibly hard for you to do it!

Why not have a quick and simple marriage, no bells and whistles, just a legal marriage (you can have your “dream wedding” further down the line) and go through a proper donor service?

The way you’re doing it is leaving you vulnerable to exactly what you’re trying to prevent.

[AcrossthePond55]

I'm talking from a strictly US law position here. In an 'informal' donor situation (ie 'do it yourself') the bio dad has legal rights as he is, in fact, the child's father. He can sign all the legal 'agreements' you want, but none of them hold water in a court of law if he decides to come back later and asks for access/custody. He has to actually relinquish the child for adoption to the non-bio member of the couple and all the legalities that entails. If it's done through a clinic, none of that is necessary as the 'donor process' is anonymous and there are laws that cover sperm donation.

I think you're being a bit, well, silly over 'dream wedding' and 'marriage ideal'. Just go get married. You can have your 'dream wedding' later. And a truly 'ideal marriage' doesn't have anything to do with the wedding.

But as far as your actual questions re your plan and UK law, see a solicitor.

[PotteringAlong]

If your partner dies in childbirth (and let’s be clear, people do), what happens to your rights then? I know you’re adamant you don’t want to just get married but I think you’d be completely foolish not to. It doesn’t have to be a big shebang, but the reality is you are completely exposed if you’re not.

[InThisMultiverse]

I can understand not wanting to feel fraudulent in marrying at this time, which presumably relates to your beliefs about marriage. If it reflects a commitment between you and your partner and is a context in which a child could be born and raised with legal security, then it seems there is no duplicitousness and CP or marriage is appropriate for your purposes.

As for applying for custody in the event of separation, I might have misunderstood but unless you have concerns about your partner it would seem to be appropriate to hope for a shared care arrangement in the event of separation. Planning ahead to remove custody from a partner might suggest there are factors about them that make pursuing a child with themselves problematic. I believe, professionally at least, that all other things being equal (ie your partner not having parenting issues) she is likely to be favoured by an assessing social worker and/or family judge because she is biologically related to the child and arguably can meet a child’s identity needs: her family history will be the child’s (at least on the maternal side). It’s different in adoption when parents have been deemed likely to significantly harm a child and there are no other relatives to step in. In that case non kinship placements are the best available option. But rightly, they are a way down the list of preferred placements.

[Scullywully]

The laws have changed recently. If you go through a clinic the non birth mother is automatically the “legal parent”, you don’t need to adopt anymore.

Unfortunately outside of a legal clinic you will have to go down the adoption route.

rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-information/family-law/lesbian-parenting-and-the-law/#If%20you%20are%20not%20married/%20in%20a%20civil%20partnership%20with%20the%20birth%20mother