Why would you watch porn?

[AmIHumanYet]

How can anybody ENJOY seeing a woman being treated as a sex object? I watched some as research (seriously!) a few months ago, the general themes were men disrespecting women. it was focused on the mans pleasure and orgasm, why do some of you think that that's okay? There's NOTHING equal about this industry

Young men are getting weird and wrong ideas about women and how they should be treated from watching porn. Women are shown as sex OBJECTS, not human beings, they're shown as always being up for it, that basically using her as a wank-tool is enough to make her orgasm, that being selfish and focused on your own pleasure and orgasm is acceptable

I really want to hear some male opinions on this, it has been really upsetting me for a long time now and I feel powerless.

[AmIHumanYet]

The women in porn are very often coerced into acts that physically hurt them, like anal sex and performing oral sex on a man where he pushes her head, the women usually pretend to have an orgasm from these things. Porn is so readily available and influences the way men and boys view women and girls and what they expect of them during sex.

The women in the porn videos are literally being destroyed both mentally and physically. When you watch these videos, you are seeing real life human women being hurt and abused, how could anybody justify this?

[AmIHumanYet]

PLEASE READ THIS.... PLEASE!!!
www.covenanteyes.com/2008/10/29/ex-porn-star-tells-the-truth-part-2/

[BOFtastic]

The link doesn't work for me, sorry.

I'd guess that the reason is that it's a shortcut to what we (metaphorically) used to use, ie our imagination. Much like many people ignore kids stitching footballs and cheap clothes, people prefer not to think about the conditions of the people producing the stuff.

The part that worries me (apart from the obvious) is that as well as exploiting actors, porn actually limits the imagination, and warps it in ways which are particularly damaging to women. It conditions men into fantasising about abuse.

Nobody wants to go back to covering piano legs, but there has got to be a space for the erotic imagination outside the fast-buck capitalist misogynistic shite which is ubiquitous now, surely?

[AlbertGiordino]

Sadly the prevalence of such porn in the modern age will have a lot to answer for in future generations IMO.

I agree with the pp who analogised the porn industry with child labour. Its very easy yo turn a blind eye, because its the internet/so geographically distant Unfortunately with porn, there is no 'free range' alternative.

I think people will always search out ways of exploring erotic fantasy via self pleasure, whether it be the top shelf magazines or youporn. The ideal would be to find a way of producing 'fairtrade' porn, where the actors rights and content can be assured

[rpitchfo]

Some of this maybe wrong but just writing down my initial (male) thoughts.

I think the short answer is that a lot of men just don't think about the arguments your raise. It's not even a conscious decision to ignore the issue but complete, blissful ignorance. Masturbation is the ultimate self-gratification, the less thought that goes into the act the better.

I maybe doing men a disservice here but I've never had a debate about the rights/ and wrongs of the porn industry with friends - but i have had plenty of conversations about porn in general.

Secondly this is a humanist topic but an issue feminists are arguing. An argument the feminists are losing badly. The porn industry and the pro-porn lobby seem to base their arguments around "empowerment" of women; but for the vast, vast majority of porn "actors" this couldn't be further from the truth. This probably isn't going to go down well but feminists need to find a way to engage in this debate sensitively. Men have become normalised to all sorts of porn - it's not going to be an easy education to persuade us that its morally and fundamentally wrong. Antagonistic arguments demonizing the male users aren't going to win people over especially when the alternative argument does appear on the surface to be "pro-women".

Personally, i've stopped watching porn, but only because i stumbled across the feminist section of mumsnet.

For me men need to start having the conversation with each other about what they feel is acceptable.

[MsAnatomist]

I'm a woman and I watch porn - I watch it because it turns me on, that's the simple reason.

Do I watch any old thing online? Absolutely not, lord knows what the production was like for that. Coercion, exploitation, unsafe sex, low pay etc etc.

I order my porn in DVD format from the web, that is created by reputable directors and production companies, with a clear ethos about upholding ethical standards in the sex and adult entertainment industry. Much the same as buying meat products with the little red tractor logo on it or the way I buy soap without palm oil used in it.

I'm all for watching consensual, adult sex. I'm also all for people having an honest talk about such things with their teenagers so they have sensible ideas about pornography coming into adulthood.

If someone wants to watch porn where the script is a woman being used for a man's pleasure, what is wrong with that? As long as the actress wasn't ACTUALLY being used for a man's pleasure, it was all safe, consensual, well-paid, non-coerced acting, and there is an expectation that the viewer (male or female) has been properly educated about the difference between fantasy, expectation, and reality from an appropriate age, along with other relevant issues around sex such as consent, there is nothing to despair about.

I don't think a man that can say "Hey dear, after we put the kids to bed and eat that new tub of ice cream, let's get it on. Can I roleplay demeaning you, since you like being demeaned in a roleplay? Yes? Great. By the way, are we painting the kitchen tomorrow? Love you too" is a bad person.

[MannishBoy]

I often find myself conflicted over porn. Logically I feel it is wrong, generally exploitative and, with an almost 18 year old daughter, some of it an be slightly disturbing. When I'm horny, however, my logical mind goes for a walk while the other head takes over. I tend to look at stuff from my own age group, so none of the teen stuff. But in the moments I'm watching it, I'm not thinking about it in a subjective way, just as a means to get me off when I'm home alone and horny.

Not the proudest admission in the world, but there you are.

[Honeysweet]

Perhaps it needs to be talked about more, to help enable it to stop happening as much?

[AmIHumanYet]

Are you doing anything to try and stop supporting it MannishBoy or simply accepting that it's wrong and carrying on?

[NeoFaust]

Pro-porn here.

Of course it's good wank-material, but honestly I regard it as an artform with a multitude of sub-genres that I enjoy as entertainment as much as titillation.

I try to make sure it's from ethical, legally scrutinised sources. I feel no need to apologise for it - if the women are free participants and agreed in advance to every element of the performance, then really - what's the harm?

Homemade sex videos are the BEST. Commercial stuff fills a gap, but I hope one day everything will be homemade amateur porn. Real women and real men having really wild sex in a real relationship. Nothing hotter.

Frankly it seems that feminism just carried on the Edwardian narrative of male sex = brutish, animal, violent and female sex = pure, emotional, civilised. Trying to demonise porn is just one element of this attack and, to be honest, makes me enjoy it even more. My ultimate kink is that thought that the sex I'm having makes some prudish harpy grind her teeth (no kidding).

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

I think people who make out they're all worldly-wise and 'oh sure, I use porn because it's fun but only the ethical sort' are often sadly naive about what happens behind the scenes.

Eg the idea that homemade porn is fine - but there have been an increasing number of cases where women have been forced to make amateur porn as part of an abusive relationship (or, as happened to a MNer a few months ago, photos or film her dp took of her was put online without her consent).

If you worked in the porn industry and know the actors and really know what's the background is like, fine, but most people who insist that they don't use anything exploitative don't actually have much information to base it on.

[curlew]

The answer to the OP's question, either because you are a misogynist arse or you are stupid with no idea how the world works. Hope this helps.

[curlew]

I've now read the thread.

I endorse my previous post. Examples of both aplenty.

[AnyFucker]

Neo, did you realise your post makes you sound like you really hate women ?

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

Indeed Curlew, and sometimes both.

[MsAnatomist]

Tuniptheunconquerable, it's really not that complex or hard to know for sure. I will probably have to change my forum name after this but I have worked in the sex industry truly happily (no boss, self employed, good hours, good money, nice people, my own safety measures), and in that time met people working in sectors different to mine, like in pornography. I think that's when I really started to care about it, and didn't believe the half of the pro porn lot on "Oh it's really all great for the girls." There's this awful seedy side to pornography, much like sweatshop-type manufacturing, field working for little pay etc etc - downright disgusting. (That doesn't mean we say "Oh you can't buy fruit, it could be from a slave farm - you do your homework and know what's what). But like with these other industries, it is extremely easy to find out the work conditions of pornography, if you give enough of a damn to do it. The best thing is to start with the actors and actresses, particularly the ones which own their own production companies, and read things like the charters they've signed up to, ask queries about independent inspections and certificates, and most importantly make use of previous groups freedom of information requests. Porn made in the UK is definitely on the whole more worrying that it's US counterparts, the industry in the USA still has massive black spots obviously, but there are very promising ex-actress/still-actress-lead producers running their own studios. Obviously it means that you are not able to get new material on demand, but like any sort of film, quality and assurance speaks for itself.

To me the bottom line will always be education - of teenagers and even people my own age. I am very glad I found out responsibility on my own because I surely could have ended up one of these poor lads in their early twenties that have an awful misconception of women/men and can only get off from tabboo odd things they see in porn.

If people were to actually take the steps I mentioned about finding porn to be proud of watching, even just for research purposes so they know that it really does exist, and then told all their friends about it, debates like this wouldn't be going on. That also goes for talking to teenagers about it honestly, and in a non-judgmental way. We'd eventually destroy the demand chain for disreputable pornography.

[MsAnatomist]

And Tunip, I totally agree with you on homemade porn - awful awful idea to endorse such a thing.

Neofaust, I do think you're missing the point of what other people have been trying to say. They are genuinely concerned about working conditions, impact on the ability to imagine on your own etc. It's not just about what you find hot - it's also about a moral obligation.

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

'Porn made in the UK is definitely on the whole more worrying that it's US counterparts'

That's very interesting, can you elaborate?
What is it in particular about the UK industry that makes it dodgy?

[AnyFucker]

MsA, how would you reliably check the credentials of home made porn as so enthusiastically endorsed by our very misogynist wanker here ?

Give 'em a call on the blower ?

[MsAnatomist]

*could have ended up like

[AnyFucker]

Ah, cross posted. I see we are on the same page with misogynist Wankery at least.

[MsAnatomist]

I wouldn't! How on earth can you check that??

Well the main thing with the UK is the attitude to safe sex. It is abolsutely appalling. They do the whole "Get tested, show us your certificate, you'll only have sex with someone that's been tested recently, UNPROTECTED." It is madness, you can get tested, go out and pick up an STD, two weeks later get the call from the clinic saying your last tests were negative, and then get your certificate and are allowed to work.

[AnyFucker]

Yep

[BOFtastic]

From what I've read, the same applies to Hollywood porn. There have been outbreaks of HIV among the actors; I think Louis Theroux featured a rather sad young man that this happened to for one of his documentaries.

[MsAnatomist]

I agree with that, there was that massive syphillis (Pretty sure it was that) outbreak, it shut down the LA scene for ages. The thing is that america is so big it is like comparing say, the whole of europe with the UK. There's these bubbles of good repute that are larger than what's positive with the UK. Although from the ladies and gents I spoke to who worked in the UK, the pay seemed to be on the whole better here? Although how you can put a price on your health/safety is obviously a question no one likes to think of at all.