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More emerging about Covid and Kawasaki in Children

(64 Posts)
woodpidgeons Sat 09-May-20 22:01:34

New York reports 73 cases of Children falling severely I'll with toxic shock like syndrome linked to Covid

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/09/children-coronavirus-death-kawasaki

woodpidgeons Sat 09-May-20 22:02:06

*ill

museummumblog Sat 09-May-20 22:08:00

Honestly really frightening. 3 children confirmed dead in NY. I hope there will be more scientific information available soon.

ChipotleBlessing Sat 09-May-20 22:08:09

I read this Lancet article about the UK cases earlier today. It’s interesting. A children’s hospital in London is currently dealing with more than 20 cases, so it seems like maybe it’s not quite as super rare as first thought.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31094-1/fulltext

ChrissieKeller61 Sat 09-May-20 22:08:54

Everyone still keen to get back school ?

Keepdistance Sat 09-May-20 22:10:08

Sad from what i was reading it was expected it would increase as it happens delayed by weeks from the infection.
I wonder if treatment with aspirin might help when kids have covid but they would need to look into that because kids cant have aspirin as it causes a rare condition.

Coronovirus nl63 also causes kawasaki.

I think the reason older kids are getting it too is became its a new virus whereas say nl63 most kids had had by age 5.

WeAllHaveWings Sat 09-May-20 22:28:46

Everyone still keen to get back school ?

This is exactly why we shouldn't be in a rush for easing anything. This virus is still too new, we still have no real idea of what it is fully capable of and it will take time to work that out. Sending children back to school anytime soon will be an experiment I am not willing for my child to participate in.

I had already decided my 16 year old won't be back in school before the summer holidays (Scotland so almost certain not to be open anyway) and I'll reassess after August if/when they do start to consider it.

Peapod29 Sat 09-May-20 22:32:33

It worrying. I feel by rushing schools back we are treating our kids like guinea pigs. The numbers are small but if the virus rips round schools how many might be very serial or die?

Dorual Sat 09-May-20 22:37:38

Does it show with a high fever like normal kawasaki?

museummumblog Sat 09-May-20 22:41:10

@ChipotleBlessing thanks for the Lancet article, a sobering read, even if small numbers in the UK reported so far. I can't imagine what these families have been through.

@ChrissieKeller61 I said to my partner this makes me very reluctant to send my kids back, but I'm trying not to panic and hoping there's more scientific information available soon.

Keepdistance Sat 09-May-20 22:49:32

If we have only 5% immunity the however many get it from this wave we need to x12 or more.

The link gives details yes they had fever and diarrhoea.
I agree this is basically SARs light and sars was a nasty thing that left permanent damage as this has been found to do.
We could end up with lots of kids with long term health issues. Heart and lung and immune system

museummumblog Sat 09-May-20 22:50:09

@Keepdistance just wondering which studies you've seen with the link between NL63 and Kawasaki. I did a quick Google and could only find studies showing there wasn't a link, although these seem to date from 2006. The Lancet article linked to above does mention Aspirin use to treat, this is in a clinical setting rather than at home of course.

@Dorual the Lancet article lists the symptoms of each of the 8 cases, including a temperature above 40 degrees C for a number of days.

Pixxie7 Sat 09-May-20 23:14:10

I think they need to start thinking outside the box, clearly it’s neither safe or practical for schools to return as before. However it’s not fair for children to continue to miss out on vital education. Examples could be using cinemas for lectures for the older ones and possibly senior schools for the younger ones making social distancing, not ideal I know.

Keepdistance Sat 09-May-20 23:33:35

There was a conflict but the first research said they had found it in kids with kawasaki. I imagine there are a few viruses implicated. But it seems too much of a coincidence surely ?
Nl 63 also uses ace2 recepror like SARs (1) and 2.

Keepdistance Sat 09-May-20 23:44:35

. Interestingly, the viral load of HCoV-NL63 in patients with a coinfection is significantly lower than the load in singly infected HCoV-NL63 patients ( Chiu, 2005 ; van der Hoek, 2005 ). The reduced viral load may be caused by direct competition for the same target cell in the respiratory tissues. Alternatively, the innate immune response triggered by one respiratory virus may inhibit replication of HCoV-NL63. It is also likely that an initial HCoV-NL63 infection may set the stage for a subsequent infection with another respiratory virus, and at the time that this second virus is causing symptoms, the HCoV-NL63 infection may already be under the control of the immune system. Double infections are more often observed in hospitalized patients vs. outpatients ( van der Hoek, 2005 ), suggesting that patients with a codetected respiratory virus have a more severe disease or a worse long-term prognosis than patients with a single HCoV-NL63 infection. However, further studies are required to confirm these trends.

Viral shedding
In the course of a coronavirus infection the virus can be shed for a long period. For instance, some cats infected with FIPV (feline infectious peritonitis virus) can continue to shed the virus in faeces for months ( Herrewegh, 1997 ) and the duration of SARS-CoV excretion in faeces is also up to a few months ( Liu, 2004 ). The duration of SARS-CoV excretion in sputa was on average a few weeks, but could for some persons extend to almost 2 months ( Liu, 2004 ). For HCoV-NL63 the situation does not seem very different. Three weeks after an initial HCoV-NL63 infection the virus is still detectable in respiratory specimens in 50% of the infected children. At this time all children are free of symptoms ( Kaiser, 2005 )

It's a different virus but similar and poses an explanation for why that boy managed not to infect anyone when he had i think 172 contacts - thry said he also had another virus.

Keepdistance Sat 09-May-20 23:49:20

I presume theyve tied ivig
An interesting HCoV-NL63 inhibitor is intravenous immunoglobulin ( Pyrc, 2006a ), which is already approved as an intravenously delivered drug by the Food and Drug Administration. Intravenous immunoglobulin has been used successfully to treat several diseases, mostly primary immune deficiencies and autoimmune neuromuscular disorders, but also respiratory diseases (e.g. RSV; Hemming, 1987 ) and Kawasaki disease ( Stiehm, 1987 ).

woodpidgeons Sun 10-May-20 05:24:29

Yeah they treated each Child in the study published in the lancet with IVIG.

I too think this is basically SARS light. I'm no scientist, but have had that hunch from the start. It shares over 90% of its genetics with the original SARS .

Reastie Sun 10-May-20 06:07:26

I think they need to start thinking outside the box, clearly it’s neither safe or practical for schools to return as before. However it’s not fair for children to continue to miss out on vital education. Examples could be using cinemas for lectures for the older ones and possibly senior schools for the younger ones making social distancing, not ideal I know.

They’d have to think very carefully about using places like cinemas. Even though social distancing could be possible there are other risks eg air circulation in there and the way that could spread the virus, and lack of windows for fresh air.

sashh Sun 10-May-20 06:27:42

I think they need to start thinking outside the box

They don't, they need to staart looking at education of children in remote areas, Australi had 'school of the air' decades ago, ini the Falkland Islands they use something similar with travelling tutors who live with a fmaily for a week and then move on to the next family.

In the UK the OU has been running distance learning for 50+ years. Other unis in Europe have distancew learning.

It's not ideal to have just distance education but it might have to be a stop gap.

Sorry to derail the discussion.

Bluntness100 Sun 10-May-20 06:41:17

I think people need to contextualise this, firstly the virus has been with the world since November.

Secondly as the article says it’s very rare.

Thirdly it predominantly impacts children below 5, not school age, in the rare instance it does impact children.

Fourthly it is when children have Kawasaki syndrome and Covid the issue arises.

Fifth children getting Kawasaki is very rare.

Sixth, no child should die, but it is incredibly, incredibly rare any child gets ill or has complications from Covid, or even catch it. The numbers globally verify this.

woodpidgeons Sun 10-May-20 06:50:03

sashh I agree re distance learning.

Bluntness The Covid related inflammatory syndrome is affecting Children of all ages. The pattern of Kawasaki being usually seen in under 5s is not occurring with this.

"What's really unusual about this particular presentation is that they are older," noted Deepika Thacker, MD, medical director for the cardiac inpatient unit at Nemours Children's Health System in Wilmington, Delaware. Kawasaki disease typically affects children age 5 years and younger, but many of these cases reported have been in teens, she pointed out.

In the NYC health department report, the 15 cases in children ages 2 to 15 years were hospitalized with typical or incomplete Kawasaki disease, some with shock"

www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86393

and there are others.

scaevola Sun 10-May-20 06:53:59

"I too think this is basically SARS light. I'm no scientist, but have had that hunch from the start. It shares over 90% of its genetics with the original SARS "

Not a hunch - it's the reason why the virus which causes COVID-19 was namesd SARS-COV-2

Bluntness100 Sun 10-May-20 07:00:40

Op. As awful as it is, there is over 4 million cases of Covid globally. That have been tested and confirmed, the true number is likely ten times higher than that.

The amount of children with this syndrome is likely less than fifty in the world.

Please try to gain some perspective. Children are not dropping like flies. Schools are in in many many countries.

It is as rare as it gets. Yes one is too many, but the rarity has to be accepted.

Ilets Sun 10-May-20 07:03:54

I'm with Bluntness on this

But let people make their own decisions. Keep your kids at home if you prefer, and home school them. Definitely we should be looking to Australia for instance, for ideas, as some children will need to shield for a long time

Biscuit0110 Sun 10-May-20 07:05:38

This is sensationalist headlines (and thread)

Almost at the bottom we read:

“We want to reassure parents – this appears to be uncommon. While Kawasaki disease can damage the heart or blood vessels, the heart problems usually go away in five or six weeks, and most children fully recover,”

This disease has been around for a very long time. Large numbers of children are not becoming ill.

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