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Statistics and BAME

(54 Posts)
MsHeffaPiglet Thu 07-May-20 23:14:45

The death rate is much higher amongst BAME members of this country.

Should this be a consideration when judging how well or bad the UK is doing in comparison to other European countries.

Does the UK have much higher BAME citizens or residents than other countries. Should this be included in the stats along with general population density as awhole and other factors such as a more aged population and the health of individuals?

Could this explain the lower death rates in
Scandinavia, South Korea and Taiwan?

And before anyone accuses me of anything I am BAME person and quite worried about the extra risks of having a bad outcome I and others like me will have.

OP’s posts: |
RegDet Thu 07-May-20 23:46:12

I have a couple of questions. When people say BAME, aren't they lumping a whole lot of people into one category? Is there a difference in the stats between people with an African heritage compared with for example people from an Asian heritage?
Also if someone from Taiwan or South Korea moved here they would surely be classified as minority ethnic in the UK so how does that work?

Flaxmeadow Fri 08-May-20 00:05:00

I'm not convinced yet that it's much higher
What I dont understand is
Why are they using the 2011 census to work out the BAME population. These records are 9 years out of date.
Why are they comparing the statistics to the whole country, when BAME people are more likely to live in an urban area, where there are more cases of covid19

june2007 Fri 08-May-20 00:27:41

RegDet yes there is a difference black people do worse then Asians. (according to todays update.)

Porcupineinwaiting Fri 08-May-20 00:54:18

They are using the 2011 census data because that was the last census.

Flaxmeadow Fri 08-May-20 01:11:43

They are using the 2011 census data because that was the last census

Yes I know it's the last census but it's 9 years out of date. It's coming up to the end of it's life, so to speak. Which is 2021

ToffeeYoghurt Fri 08-May-20 01:23:47

It's the same in the US. BAME communities more affected.

I wonder about BAME communities in Spain, France, Italy, etc. Are they suffering worse there too?

I'm sure I read Sweden's migrant population were bearing the brunt of Covid there. This was early on so things might've changed since then.

South Korea and Taiwan are BAME. They're Asian. Both countries have low death rates largely because they choose a containment policy. They implemented strict border controls, mass testing, tracking, and tracing. I believe masks in public are compulsory? I think both have very good healthcare too.

It's probably partly as a PP said demographics. Some of it is down to health inequalities. Also there's talk of Vitamin D. It's thought BAME people need more as their bodies absorb less.

ToffeeYoghurt Fri 08-May-20 01:43:26

www.ft.com/content/5fd6ab18-be4a-48de-b887-8478a391dd72

BAME communities disproportionately affected across Europe.

MsHeffaPiglet Fri 08-May-20 02:12:45

@ToffeeYoghurt

Thanks for the link. It is interesting to read that France, which has a large BAME presence, prohibits collection of stats based on ethnicity. So we wont know what is happening there.

I know BAME includes everyone that are not white. But generally serious illness is affecting mainly Afro Caribbeans and Asians as the initial scrutiny of the figures are showing.

OP’s posts: |
MsHeffaPiglet Fri 08-May-20 02:18:40

@Flaxmeadow

Given that the UK does not demand that people have identity cards, or that all newcomers must register with their local town hall or other organisations as in most other European countries, who knows what the population figure is never mind its makeup.

OP’s posts: |
BigChocFrenzy Fri 08-May-20 02:18:44

"Should this be a consideration when judging how well or bad the UK is doing in comparison to other European countries."

Nearly 83% of those who died were white, which is fairly similar to the % whites in the general population

The issue seems to be that the white people who are dying are nearly all very old,
whereas BAME people are dying at much younger ages
- the BAME population has a lower % of the very old.

So, it is not significantly affecting the UK position wrt other countries, if you look at the table
- the high UK deaths are being commented on in media around the world

What is worrying is that BAME people who are young or middle-aged are facing much higher risk than white people of the same age
- and this is happening in all Western countries, not just the UK.

BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup Fri 08-May-20 06:39:52

@RegDet they have separated the figures out per group. With these statistics if you are of black African or black Carribbean heritage you have 4 times the risk of dying compare to the white British population. If you are of Pakistani or Bangladeshi heritage you have just under 2 times. Other ethnic groups also had slightly higher risks.

They then adjusted for socioeconomic, health and disability factors in England and Wales to still find if you are of Black African, Black Carribbean, Pakistani or Bangladeshi heritage you have a much higher risk of dying than the rest of the population. With the adjusted figures the other ethnic groups including mixed ethnicity are at the same risk as the white British population.

From my personal experience with vitamin D deficiency I know people of Chinese, Indian and people of mixed ethnicity who have had issues with it.

I also know from studies of maternity health covering complications and death done in England and Wales that black women have much worse health outcomes when the figures are adjusted for socioeconomic, health and age factors.

BTW socioeconomic factors doesn't include actual job role.

ReinventingMe Fri 08-May-20 08:48:13

What I want to know is, if the high level of BAME deaths are largely related to VitD deficiency then this must have had an effect on other things up till now. Why hasn't anyone worked this out before now.

Bloody hell, honestly. It's not a major costly medicine. People could have been taking it over the years and had much better health.

BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup Fri 08-May-20 10:04:09

@ReinventingMe someone pointed out to me that due to their history Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis aren't clearly separate ethnic groups and there are overlaps between them. (I actually know someone whose ancestors ethnically come from a part of Indian that is now in Pakistan.) So if it is just vitamin D why after factors are accounted for Indians aren't suffering as badly?

BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup Fri 08-May-20 10:06:18

@ToffeeYoughurt in the UK data when it is adjusted, Taiwanese and South Koreans are in the ethnic groups who have the same risk as the white British population of dying for Covid-19.

Flaxmeadow Fri 08-May-20 12:29:27

Given that the UK does not demand that people have identity cards, or that all newcomers must register with their local town hall or other organisations as in most other European countries, who knows what the population figure is never mind its makeup

Yes and when I lived in a BAME majority area I know that some of my neighbours did not fill in the census forms and return them. This was more out of ignorance about what the census is for than a wilful refusal to comply with it. My neighbours thought the census only applied to people born here.

Something else I've noticed is that when the media report the BAME statistics they say it's in comparison to the whole country stats of how many live here. So for example it might say something like (not exact)...
30% of BAME people with covid19 die compared to a general England/Wales BAME population of 15%.
But the thing is, most BAME people live in urban areas and so they shouldn't be compared to the whole national statistics.

What should be compared is how many BAME and white people in urban areas die. Because you're more likely to have contracted covid19 if you live in certain high ethnic urban areas. Wether you're Ethnic or not.

Hope that makes sense OP

Makeuptherules Fri 08-May-20 12:33:13

I wish people would stop mentioning this without backing it up, I'm BAME and pregnant. Half black, is it half the risk if half not full?? If black and pregnant should I just stay in for the rest of my life? It's really scary being told things like this in such a blase way

GrumpyHoonMain Fri 08-May-20 12:47:33

When the scientists say BAME at the moment for Covid they mean black, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi and poor. This makes sense because on the whole these communities are the most impoverished in the UK and score badly for other health conditions too - even the NHS staff who come from these communities tend to have health issues due to the way they lived their childhoods.

Wealthier people of all communities tend to be healthier and when not working in the NHS where viral load can make the condition a million times worse, can take steps not to transmit the virus. Things like access to healthy food, handwashing, jobs that allow work from home are all really important.

MedSchoolRat Fri 08-May-20 13:11:43

Table 1 from the ICNARC report. UK People who went to critical care with viral-not-covid-pneumonia, vs. people who went to CC with covid19.

What is important about this is how different covid19 is from regular severe respiratory disease, for BAME folk. Something is very different, linked to ethnicity. I don't think the differences can be explained by Poverty, underlying conditions, smoking habits, air pollution: those factors should show up in the other viral pneumonias, stats. There is something special about covid & being male/person of colour. This is very intriguing scientifically.

DD said covid19 r0 is high so overcrowding might be the difference (exponential spread); but Bangladeshi families are much more overcrowded (as a group) than black people in UK, but blacks are more over-represented. So crowded homes seems unlikely to explain the picture.

I'm a skeptic on the posited vitamin D link but if that's the reason, it will come out sooner or later. I wonder if some ethnicities have more ACE2 receptors (or whatever sars-cov-2 latches on to).

BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup Fri 08-May-20 13:50:41

@Makeuptherules you can easily Google the ONS report yourself and read the summary. It is on the ONS website.

You are categorised as mixed ethnicity and have the same health outcomes as the white British population when adjusted for socioeconomic, health, disability and age.

BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup Fri 08-May-20 13:55:50

@MedSchoolRat I wonder why people like you aren't interested in other reports that show worse healthcare outcomes for black people? This report actually follows the trend.

I guess you are worried that it would point out that some healthcare professionals and senior healthcare management aren't doing their jobs properly.

Keepdistance Fri 08-May-20 14:50:32

Well logically Black not mixed are generally darker skinned than pakistani so need to look at how much time in the sun they would need comparitively.
Diet would make a slight difference
If you look at scandinavia they eat cod liver oil and fish and so have vit d.
Do BAME
Eat less egg/salmon/tuna
- eat less fortified food (cereal and margarine)

Indian people are more prone to t2 diabetes which i assume affects blood vessels. And someone said their ideal bmi and i think black people too would be under 22 to avoid diabetes. Which would put many more of them in that category vs whites.
Also covid seems to be about inflammation so excess weight and even things like eating more of i think omega 6 than 3?

For hcp it could even be that kit doesnt fit them (apparently it doesnt fit women well either).

Guidance for vit d supplements may need to be tailored by skin type.
I thought asians had more ace2?
I could believe too that more people dying in urban areas with smaller or no gardens to get the sun.
Even factors like then using more public transport.
Humans have adapted to environment, if i moved to Aus i would probably fry to a crisp and might have a reduced life expectancy due to skin cancer.

It's possible some ethnic groups have larger lungs (men too) due to their frame. There may well be differences in Africa between countries as say Ethiopian runners are slight but carribeans are muscular.
Then also they thought blood type made a diffence and again different countries have different ones.

Alao i note that the first french case was algerian.

VikVal81 Fri 08-May-20 14:57:00

All I know is everyone is dying from it, nobody is immune from it nor immune from death. Trying to Seperate people at a time like this is not going to serve as any positive, what should be addressed is why China said at the start that black people should be ok with the disease, nobody has actually brought this up.

MedSchoolRat Fri 08-May-20 17:33:47

I wonder what people like me are (like).

Men & people of colour are more affected by viral pneumonia than the white/females. But even more affected by covid. This is a curiousity. Knowing the answer could even lead to reducing them being more affected by other viruses that can cause pneumonia.

BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup Fri 08-May-20 19:39:14

@Keepdistance that's not actually true.

Then I guess if you know and have met limited BAME people and they all tend to originate from a few countries I'm not surprised you come out with crap like that.

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