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Why are deaths in care homes and at home still not being reported in England?

(139 Posts)
alloutoffucks Tue 14-Apr-20 14:14:47

Scotland now report how many people have died in care homes and at home with covid 19. I know there is a delay in being able to report this because of death certificates. But in England we are still not getting these figures.
I suspect a lot of people have died in care homes and at home. Some have been reported in the press like the young twenty year old near where I live found dead at home. But this figure includes anyone terminally ill, frail and with more serious underlying conditions. These people are largely not being admitted to hospital. So they die at home with carers or in a care home. Given these are mainly very vulnerable people. I suspect the mortality rate is high and the number of people who have died is high.
Why are we still not being told how many people?

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OldQueen1969 Tue 14-Apr-20 14:20:21

My best but probably cynical and totally paranoid guess is because the real numbers may undermine confidence in the loosely framed "strategy" we are following and also our glorious leaders.

My rational non-chimp brain suggests it's just inefficiency in reporting and grey areas due to lack of testing.

Depending on how much vodka I consume, I swing between the two. But I have a very dark old soul.

alloutoffucks Tue 14-Apr-20 15:16:30

Yes I am afraid that you are right and that the numbers are very high.

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BakedCam Tue 14-Apr-20 15:24:24

This worries me. I know if someone dies at home, alone, police are called. Then a PM to establish cause of death. Therefore, delays in cause of death and registering deaths, are likely to be a factor.

With Chimp upthread, I swing between a reasonable understanding of delays etc, then that reporting of non hospital deaths, are likely to look quite different on graphs.

BakedCam Tue 14-Apr-20 15:25:01

I meant OldQueen.

CuriousaboutSamphire Tue 14-Apr-20 15:26:54

Because you haven't been listening when the various podium speakers tell you where that information is published.

Hint: earlier today the ONS published the all deaths data..

Free to access

BakedCam Tue 14-Apr-20 15:28:17

Thanks, Curious.

HappyHammy Tue 14-Apr-20 15:28:38

Are carehome residents swabbed and tested for cv. I wonder if any if the figures are accurate unless everyone is tested.

CuriousaboutSamphire Tue 14-Apr-20 15:30:03

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending3april2020

Hope that works...

alloutoffucks Tue 14-Apr-20 15:31:09

@CuriousaboutSamphire Yes I missed that. So hidden from the general public rather than being upfront.

Just looked. It says up to the 3rd of April covid 19 related 16,387 deaths.
3,605 of those died in hospital, so that was the number being reported. Bloody hell that is a lot more than being reported.

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CuriousaboutSamphire Tue 14-Apr-20 15:32:37

No, they aren't necessarily tested. GP puts down cause of death, significant contributing factors, as usual.

The stats will show any deviation from normal trends. So, when there is enough data, we will know more. Again this won't be hidden, it will be published by the OND

Fanthorpe Tue 14-Apr-20 15:32:57

Yes, care home residents are being tested. If the home suspects there is a case they report it and then tests are carried out. There was a piece on the R4 PM prog yesterday.

Fanthorpe Tue 14-Apr-20 15:34:37

ONS isn’t ‘hidden data’!

Makeitgoaway Tue 14-Apr-20 15:35:50

They are being reported by the ONS daily.

The experts are only using hospital deaths because that's what the rest of the world has done. If we include other deaths in the graphs, the outputs will be distorted.

Rocketmam Tue 14-Apr-20 15:36:09

Because the figure has probably sailed past the amount which would mean UK were 'successful', so 20000.

CuriousaboutSamphire Tue 14-Apr-20 15:36:30

So hidden from the general public rather than being upfront. Only hidden in that they don't form part of the global procedure, all countries report hospital deaths in their daily count. It is the simplest way or having meaningful data on a daily basis. It was explained, again, in some detail in yesterday's update.

The ONS catch all the non hospital deaths weekly and the death toll is amendment as appropriate. That happens everywhere, not just England.

alloutoffucks Tue 14-Apr-20 15:36:50

@fanthorpe Come on! How many people read ONS data versus how many people read in the press how many people have died of corona virus? Very few will read ONS data. Most people will watch the news or see 24 hour death rate reported.
Of course it is hidden. Otherwise the figure would be openly announced rather than just saying go to ONS.

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MrsL2016 Tue 14-Apr-20 15:37:45

That number is not Covid 19 related deaths @alloutoffucks. That's total deaths for the week ending 3rd April in the UK. That's all deaths.

cathyandclare Tue 14-Apr-20 15:39:14

Not exactly hidden. It's been very widely reported

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52278825

AmelieTaylor Tue 14-Apr-20 15:39:19

So hidden from the general public rather than being upfront

Nope, not hidden. Same pace they've always been and have been discussed plenty in the broadcasts.

We report hospital deaths as do other countries.

It's just the way it is. - no cover up.

alloutoffucks Tue 14-Apr-20 15:39:45

@CuriousaboutSamphire That is not true. Scotland report their non hospital deaths in the daily briefing.

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Makeitgoaway Tue 14-Apr-20 15:40:09

The whole point of data is that it needs to be comparable. There isn't any reliable data from anywhere in the world that includes deaths outside hospitals but the ONS figure is there if you want it. It wouldn't make any sense to use it in the graphs showing the relative progress of the illness though.

It has also been referred to in the briefings, with the explanation of why it is not being used in the graphs.

CuriousaboutSamphire Tue 14-Apr-20 15:40:50

You seem to be annoyed because data is not collected and reported in real time!

mochojoes Tue 14-Apr-20 15:40:53

* Are carehome residents swabbed and tested for cv.*

An elderly ish (80) relative of mine died a few weeks. She had vascular dementia & was in the latter stage, she was tested & the results were negative however the death certificate has coronavirus on it. Apparently the tests aren't always accurate but another patient in the home did have it.

Fanthorpe Tue 14-Apr-20 15:42:09

People who understand that information comes from a variety of sources? When I read or hear something I’m going to rely on I usually verify that I’ve understood it by checking in a few places that I trust.
I’m not speaking for anyone but myself.

But if you google a statistic on population you will usually find the gov.uk site comes up on the first page, so not ‘hidden’.

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