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Reflux and wind

(19 Posts)
Wishbabycouldtalk Thu 12-Jun-14 17:14:35

Wondering if I'm alone with these issues... Any advice greatly appreciated!

My 12 week old piglet has always been a tummy achy baby, was 5 1/2 weeks early, small but healthy. Started off bf, quickly moved to combination feeding for convenience (also, he didn't get bf to start with, had to use nipple shields then wean him off them). Then have been gradually moving to fully ff as he was always ravenous and used to chew me when latching on...

ANYWAY, tummy got worse, Infacol didn't do much, eventually he would only sleep being held, then tummy down on my chest. Was very nervous sleeping like this to start with, but he would wake up screaming after 10 minutes of sleeping on his back.

When I went to the GP, he agreed it sounded like reflux, and we were prescribed Gaviscon. Seemed to help at first, then stopped after a few days, just kaput. Went back to GP, was told to try Colief in case it was a lactose intolerance. I still thought it was reflux, but I could see the GP's line of thought-maybe we're treating the wrong problem. Absolutely diddly squat. Tried Cow&Gate Anti-Reflux milk- he was a happier baby instantly!

That was nearly a week ago, started getting him to learn to sleep alone again, all great... But now he wakes up with painful trapped gas instead. Really struggling to do big farts, no matter how much he's winded and how many burps he does. So he's back to wanting to sleep on me.

Spoken to HV, as am now trying Infacol again alongside C&G reflux milk, she recommended Dr Brown bottles, have ordered some today, but little piglet is in such a ad mood. He is currently asleep laying across me with his belly against mine. He's a terrible napper, this is the only way together him to sleep enough, except when we're out and about. I can't keep having him sleep on me, it did my back in before.

I know this is really long and rambling,but I just hope some of you will be stuck with a baby on you like me, and have the time to read this! Any suggestions, anything at all would be appreciated, I want my happy little boy back

Wishbabycouldtalk Thu 12-Jun-14 17:15:45

Forgot to mention, we have now stopped bf, as he would always just throw it up where it was too thin to stay down. He's also been to an osteopath/chiropractor. Am very skeptical, but am going back tomorrow anyway. Had lots of recommendations for her, even from my HV, will try anything!

P.s. If anyone has noticed this posted already, I realised that this topic made more sense for my issues!

mawbroon Thu 12-Jun-14 17:39:23

Has he ever been checked properly for tongue tie by somebody who know what they are doing?

It can cause this type of problem, as well as the difficulty latching that you mentioned.

Wishbabycouldtalk Thu 12-Jun-14 17:45:29

Yes, he definitely doesn't have a tongue tie, as we've had lots of doctors checks (he has hypus spadias sp?)

He would latch well, but was just too eager!

Thank you for replying (and reading my mammoth post!)

minipie Thu 12-Jun-14 17:48:21

DD had posterior tongue tie, undiagnosed till 4 months, she had a lot of the things you mention:
- took a long time to learn to BF
- "clamped down"/chewed when BFing
- tummy achey/windy
- would only sleep on my chest
- terrible napper (by the way, I found DD would also sleep in a moving pram - but I had to keep moving!)

You need to see a specialist dr at a tongue tie clinic, or a trained BF counsellor/lactation consultant to properly diagnose it or rule it out (GPs and HVs don't know what to look for even if they think they do!)

If it is TT then the good news is, a simple cut will most likely sort most of this out. It did for us.

I'd suggest you see your GP or HV and ask for referral to tongue tie clinic.

Osteopathy can help but after the TT is cut.

minipie Thu 12-Jun-14 17:49:14

PS and mine was 6 weeks early! I didn't pick up the tongue tie for ages as kept blaming everything on being prem... but actually I think the TT had more to do with it.

minipie Thu 12-Jun-14 17:50:39

Oh cross post!!

So who has checked for tongue tie? A general paediatrician or a tongue tie specialist? DD was checked by about a zillion doctors during her 3 weeks in SCBU - none of them found the tongue tie or even looked in her mouth...

mawbroon Thu 12-Jun-14 18:00:20

Totally agree with minipie re seeing somebody who specialises in tongue tie.

This thread may give you some idea of how rubbish many HCPs are at spotting it

Also this is very helpful

Wishbabycouldtalk Thu 12-Jun-14 19:06:59

That's really interesting what you guys have said regarding TT...every check up a doctor has had a quick look checked it off their list. Will see GP tomorrow and ask about seeing a specialist methinks!

Thank you both for info, esp interesting mini pie having same issues


minipie Thu 12-Jun-14 19:21:30

My experience is that a lot of doctors/HVs are aware of/able to check for anterior TT. That's the one where the tongue is attached near the tip - it causes the classic heart shaped tongue and inability to stick tongue out. Very sore to BF and often baby loses weight v quickly/cannot BF at all. It's quite easy to spot as there's an obvious "string" attaching front end of tongue to base of mouth.

However far far fewer are aware of/able to spot posterior TT. That's where the back of the tongue is anchored too tightly iyswim. It's very hard to spot unless specially trained. It makes BF difficult but not as obviously as anterior, so less likely to be picked up via weight loss.

I was told by a nurse in SBCU that DD didn't have tongue tie "because she can stick her tongue out". But that symptom doesn't apply to posterior TT which is what she turned out to have. She told me there was no tongue tie meaning there was no anterior tongue tie. Total red herring <sigh>.

mawbroon Thu 12-Jun-14 19:38:16

yep, they seem to go on appearance a lot of the time. Appearance is irrelevant. It is function that is important.

I have photos on my profile of DS1's before revision. He could lift it really high, he could stick it out really far, he had no problems with speech, but the back of his tongue was significantly tied and caused him no end of problems.

Thankfully all resolved now.

ShineSmile Thu 12-Jun-14 20:52:16

My DD had her tongue tie revised but still had silent reflux and had to go on medication. We also later found out she has multiple allergies including cows milk which may have been contributing to the reflux. Revising tongue tie (even if its present) isn't the solution to everything.

You could try your LO on medication for reflux? How much milk does he bring up? And when?

ShineSmile Thu 12-Jun-14 20:55:10

It could be a combination of reflux and lactose intolerance? Though lactose intolerance is rare in babies. You could try coilef with the anti reflux milk? Have you tried gripe water? I recall the boots one being good. Infacol makes reflux worse.

mawbroon Thu 12-Jun-14 21:51:31

I agree that revising tongue tie is not the solution to everything, but it's a good place to start.

ShineSmile Thu 12-Jun-14 23:01:36

Mawbroon, I disagree. Most people and babies have some form of posterior tongue tie (albeit very small). Even those who have it revised, it is not fully revised. Tongue ties are normally only divided if there is a breastfeeding problem. It is highly unlikely that a very slight posterior tongue tie could be causing other issues like reflux.

mawbroon Thu 12-Jun-14 23:31:52

Not all reflux is caused by tongue tie, but tongue ties can cause significant gastric problems.

Digestion begins in the mouth. If the suck/chew then swallow mechanism is not functioning correctly, it can have a knock on effect on the entire digestive system.

This article is about the link between ties and reflux and colic Dr Kotlow is a world leading expert on ties.

You need to define what you mean by a "slight" posterior tongue tie. IME, that is the phrase used by people who are judging a tie by it's appearance. Appearance is *irrelevant", it is all about how fully the tongue functions and which symptoms are present.

And you also need to clarify what you mean by "most people have some form of posterior tongue tie"

I suspect that you mean that most people have a visible frenulum. Yes, that's true, lots of people do. But, if tongue function is normal, then it is not a tongue tie, it is just a frenulum.

"Even those who have it revised, it is not fully revised" what do you mean? If you are referring to tongue tie revisions that are not done correctly, then yes, I agree that some are not fully revised. This may be because sometimes scissors cannot cut deep enough to release the entire frenulum, or whoever is doing the revision is not fully familiar with posterior tongue ties. I have seen a video of a posterior tie being released with laser, and the tongue could actually be seen popping up when the tie was completely released. I've had a look for it to link, but can't find it now.

"It is highly unlikely that a very slight posterior tongue tie could be causing other issues like reflux." Sorry, but you are wrong.

My son's tongue ties went undiagnosed until he was almost 6yo. His overall health suffered terribly, all of it stemming from ties and distorted orofacial structure which was caused by restricted tongue movement.

ShineSmile Thu 12-Jun-14 23:45:48

Mawbroon, thank you.

I've just had a strange experience. My DD's tongue and lip tie were both lasered, after a lactation consultant highlighted that she had a posterior tongue tie. After the tie, the lactation consultant and tongue tie practitioner said the tie was still there. I showed her to another LC who said it looks like it may be there. Another LC and tongue tie practitioner said its probably still there too and she had an odd way of sucking, but she can't divide it. I made a four hour journey back to original divider who said there was nothing there to divide! It was at that point I lost faith in the while thing and realised I had wasted time, effort and money on the whole tongue tie (like cranial osteopathy), when I should have made more effort to get her medically diagnosed and would have realised the problem was allergies!!

ShineSmile Thu 12-Jun-14 23:47:36

But when you are desperate, you do try everything. My biggest regret is getting my DDs lip tie lasered, and not at 12 months, her front teeth are unusually visible when you look at her.

mawbroon Fri 13-Jun-14 00:20:08

Your experience highlights just how difficult it can be when it comes to tongue ties.

On the one hand, you have HCPs who don't even believe that posterior tongue ties exist confused and on the other, you have people who have taken a specialist interest in it and are very well informed on the matter. I hear all sorts of stories of people being told something different by every HCP they talk to. No wonder parents are confused by the whole thing.

The thing about ties is that they do not usually come on their own. Many tied kids have multiple health issues like my son did. I was sick fed up of seeing so many different doctors - one for his allergies, another for his ENT problem, plus the audiology appointments, another one again for his gastric problems, trips to the dietician and so on plus being shrugged at by our NHS dentist when I mentioned his orthodontic problems. There was no joined up thinking and nobody was looking at his body as a whole.

This is why it is rarely as simple as revising a tie = all your problems are solved. Sure, that might happen with an anterior tie, but posterior ones are more complicated. They can affect the whole structural development which is what happened in my son's case.

He is undergoing early orthodontic treatment to help resolve his structural issues. This has been working extremely well for him. His orthodontist also does osteopathy, including cranial and regularly manipulates inside his mouth to help with palate expansion.

Ties can cause tension in the jaw/head/neck which in turn can have a knock on effect on the spine, hips and ankles ie the whole body. No amount of osteopathy will release those tensions if the underlying cause (ie the ties ) remains untreated.

Again, there are osteopaths (cranial or otherwise) who do not fully understand the impact that ties can have, and then there are those who have good knowledge. This can be another layer of confusion for parents to deal with.

Also, when a baby has a tongue tie revision, they often need a bit of help learning how to use their "new" tongue. I have read about suck training following revision, but I don't know terribly much about it because my son was older when he had his revision done so I didn't look into it in great depth. This brings us to Lactation consultants. Similar to what I mentioned earlier, there are some who are really clued up about ties, and others who are not.

It's a minefield!

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