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Mumsnetters aren't necessarily qualified to help if your child is unwell. If you have any serious medical concerns, we would urge you to consult your GP.


(44 Posts)
clarlce Sun 17-Jul-11 16:43:37

Some interesting info about vaccinations

• The first ever case of autism was in 1943. In 1960 the incidence of autism was 1 child out of every 2000. In the year 2000 it was 1 in 200 and in some areas (America) is has been reported to be as common as 1 in 132.
• By the end of the 1990s the average American child was receiving a total of 33 doses of 10 different vaccines by the time he or she was 6 years old. Between 1992 and 1997 the incidence of reported cases increased by 300% in a total of twenty four states.
• As the number of vaccines given increased, so did the incidence of autism.
• Cases of autism were primarily confined to upper-and upper-middle-class families in the 40’s and 50’s, as these individuals were the ones who could afford to pay for health care. When the government made vaccines free to all who could not afford them, autism crossed class lines.
• Howard Urnovitz, Ph.D., a microbiologist and founder of the Chronic Illness Research Foundation in Berkeley, California, argues that the federal government keeps insisting that ‘There’s no scientific evidence to prove that vaccines cause chronic diseases, but they won’t fund any research in that area either. If you don’t look for something you wont find it’’.
• Despite the advances in medicine and medical technology – or perhaps because of them – we are seeing record numbers of cases of autoimmune disorders. This is especially true among children, where there are a rising numbers of juvenile rheumatoid arthiritis, juvenile diabetes, pediatric asthma, pediatric Crohn’s disease, and Guillain-Barre syndrome.
• There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating ANY childhood disease. IF immunisations were responsible for the disappearance of these diseases in the U.S, one must ask why they disappeared simultaneously in Europe, where mass immunization did not take place – Robert S. Mendelsohn M.D. How To Raise a Healthy Child In Spite of Your Doctor.

The weight of statistical and anecdotal evidence debunking the great medical saviour of modern times - mass immunization – is enormous.

All parents must look into these issues personally. To not read the literature weighing up the debate or to hold strong opinions in support of vaccination, without having read about these issues, is deeply irresponsible.

The information here was taken from What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children’s Vaccinations by Stephanie Cave, M.D. It is a fair, balanced view showing the argument without any mindless, anti-vaccination rants.

beautifulgirls Sun 17-Jul-11 18:59:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sirzy Sun 17-Jul-11 19:20:48

DO you really believe that there was no Autism until 1943? Surely nobody is that naive!

What has actually happened is as time has gone on we have become much more aware of learning difficulties on all scales, we have identified things such as Autism and we are now in a position where those with Autistic Spectrum Disorders are diagnosed at a young age and - generally - get the help we need.

More awareness doesn't necessarily equate to more cases.

clarlce Sun 17-Jul-11 19:42:46

Beautifulgirls - that is a useless, emotional response. The same could be said about not making an informed decision about vaccines and then having your child lost to autism.

Sirzy - Not so. This isn't a situation whereby improved diagnostic methods have 'found' the autistic children. If it were, since autism is a life-long disorder, we would have the same rates of autistic people in their 70's and 80's as we have in our young people today. It is a modern disease, one that is increasing at an alarming rate.

clarlce Sun 17-Jul-11 20:02:57

Check out the comparisons between mercury poisoning and Autism - the 2 conditions are almost identical.

The EPA's (Environmental Protection Agency) safe level of mercury per kilogram of body weight, p/day is 0.1 micrograms.

During 1991 and 1999 the U.S began vaccinating newborns with the Hepatitis B vaccine. Each shot contained 12.5 micrograms of mercury. The total accumulated amount a fully vaccinated child had received, by 6 months of age, was 187.5 micrograms.

Children below the age of 4-6 months are not able to produce bile, which aids the body in removing toxins. When mercury accumulates in the body it travels to the brain and changes into inorganic mercury, clings to brain tissue and causes damage to the nervous system. And it doesn't just cling to any part of the brain but precisely the areas involved in autism - cerebellum, amygdala and hippocampus.

larrygrylls Mon 18-Jul-11 10:55:25


Dangerous pseudo science. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

Let's have a look at your last post, for instance. You make no distinction between the mercury dose given and that retained. Most data on thimerosal is based on methyl mercury, a more dangerous compound. Babies given vaccines containing thimerosal were found to eliminate it and none were found to have dangerous levels in their blood. [Pichichero ME, et al. Lancet 360:1737-1741 (2002)]. Finally, thimerosal is no longer present in a lot of vaccines.

Do you actually know what organic and inorganic mean? Why do you think "inorganic" mercury is worse? What kind of "inorganic" mercury are you talking about?

clarlce Mon 18-Jul-11 13:32:22

For the majority of children, that is probably the case. However it is believed that certain children may have more difficulty eliminating mercury from their system.

Thimerosal is 49.6 percent ethylmercury by weight.

As there is little data on the poisonous effects of ethylmercury toxicologists use what they know about methylmercury, a more common form of mercury, to draw conclusions about how dangerous it may or may not be. Ethylmercury has been shown to be eliminated from the body much more rapidly than methylmercury so that would indicate that it is less toxic.

In young children, before the ages of 4-6 months, the blood-brain barrier is not yet formed so that whilst studies show that mercury exposure has little affect on the brain for adults it can have serious implications for young children.

Treatment of autism using an oral detoxifier (DMSA), which causes the body to deposit some of the mercury into the urine, has had remarkable effects on children with autism - in some cases allowing a full recovery.

There are various different definitions as to what constitutes an organic or inorganic compound but since it is not practical for everyone to be a specialist in all areas that concern us i am content to rely on reading conclusions made from various studies and various experts in reaching my own decision. I can assume that if a qualified toxicologist understands the difference between organic and inorganic mercury and its relative effects on the body, i need not understand it myself only his conclusion.

The issue -which has been the issue now for nearly 60 years - is that there is no government funding into the long-term health affects of vaccination.

clarlce Mon 18-Jul-11 13:34:07

Dangerous pseudo science that seem to be enough for a large number of doctors and researchers to be very much against over-vaccinating our children.

Sidge Mon 18-Jul-11 13:40:56

Babies do produce bile.

larrygrylls Mon 18-Jul-11 13:49:27

In addition, if your fears are based on mercury, I believe only hep b and influenza have any mercury, now.

beautifulgirls Mon 18-Jul-11 16:28:41

Clarice I presume you haven't sat in an intensive care unit watching your child fight for their life. I have.

beautifulgirls Mon 18-Jul-11 16:29:06

and I also have a suspected autistic daughter too - so know both sides of this.

Riveninside Mon 18-Jul-11 16:32:40

While i am anti vaccine yoir assertations are not that scientific clarice. That rise can also be attributed to sugar consumption, car use, nuclear power, suncream use, tv, computers. In fact, anything which has been increasingly used in the latter half of the 19th century. Unfortunately.

Riveninside Mon 18-Jul-11 16:33:25

Oh, and i habe sat and watched my baby fignting for her life in NICU. I still dont vaccinate. I rely on the human immune system and health.

AliGrylls Mon 18-Jul-11 19:29:54

clarice, until recently there were also higher incidences of infant mortality. Could it possibly be the case that more infants with autism would have probably been less likely to thrive which could possibly account for socio-economic differences?

Also, your point about illness disappearing without the use of vaccination is also spurious, as rates of TB are on the rise again (probably because less people are vaccinating).

The question for me is whether the risk of autism outweighs the risk of my child catching an illness that will potentially leave him disabled. Unfortunately, in our area we have the highest rate of measles and mumps in the country because parents are not vaccinating. This is evidence that if enough people don't immunise the herd immunity is lost.

If one of my children caught measles or mumps and as a result ended up deaf by a child whose parents did not immunise (not that they will now) I would be seriously angry, particularly if I then heard the argument about "natural immunity" - "natural immunity" won't bring your child's hearing back. I actually take quite a strong view on this subject and would go so far as to say it is irresponsible to not immunise.


clarlce Mon 18-Jul-11 22:27:43

Riveninside - firstly, they are not my assumptions. Mr original post was simply about parents being informed. The points were taken directly from the book mentioned. Second, I completely agree with you. I do think there are many other factors attributed to the massive decline in the health of our young people. As you have identified - refined foods, nutritional depletion in our soils, extended exposure to artificial lights etc. etc.

AliGrylls, Im interested to know what literature you have read on the subject - since you hold such strong opinions.

Nobody knows how vaccines work, IF they work we don't know for how long, no research is funded, by governments or drug companies, into the long-term affects of vaccination.

It is the pro-vaccination propaganda that claims to have eradicated childhood diseases. No.s of cases and the severity of those cases was on a steady decline BEFORE vaccinations were even introduced. The rates of decline in America married those in Europe even though there was no vaccination programme in Europe. How is that explained? remote herd immunity? Or perhaps the natural progression of disease to balance itself out as the population grows stronger with each generation.

I am not interested in a lengthy debate weighing up the issues. My decision has long since been made. I am simply asking that other parents be aware of the concerns they might otherwise be taking for granted and that to not read up on the subject is irresponsible.

Sidge Mon 18-Jul-11 22:55:20

Mass polio vaccination started in the UK in 1955.

D/T/P vaccination was introduced in the 1920s and was routinely given from the 1950s also. Most people born after the war have received doses of diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis and polio vaccine.

Research into vaccine efficacy and longevity IS researched and leads to alterations in vaccines and vaccination schedules - hence why pneumococcal vaccine now protects against 13 strains instead of just 7, and vaccines against meningitis have been modified and the timings tweaked. Research into the long-term protection of HPV vaccine is ongoing.

DBennett Mon 18-Jul-11 23:05:42

"I am not interested in a lengthy debate weighing up the issues."

If this is your intention then posting a Gish gallop of dubious information probably wasn't a good idea.

Nor is asking people to provide samples of their reading, as you did with AliGrylls.

ChunkyPickle Mon 18-Jul-11 23:22:28

'Nobody knows how vaccines work, IF they work we don't know for how long, no research is funded, by governments or drug companies, into the long-term affects of vaccination'

Yes they do, yes they do and yes it is.

That's why there's registers of affects, why some people are advised to avoid vaccinations (these people and babies who are most at risk when those who are able to don't vaccinate), that's how they can tell you how long a vaccine is likely to last, and how often you'll need boosters. They don't just randomly guess these things for each vaccine, they base it on research.

ChunkyPickle Mon 18-Jul-11 23:23:27

With the obvious caveat that someone has to go first in order for them to have the research for the larger population.

illuminasam Tue 19-Jul-11 08:37:20

<With the obvious caveat that someone has to go first in order for them to have the research for the larger population.>

Yes, and my child is therefore a guinea pig for the large amount of vaccinations given these days and the possible effects that might incur going forward 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. No thanks.

DBennett Tue 19-Jul-11 08:53:57


Would it be flippant to ask for a list of medications that you feel have 80 or so yrs of safety records sufficient so you are happy your child is not a guniea pig.

illuminasam Tue 19-Jul-11 09:03:44

Yes it would be flippant. I'm not biting.

bumbleymummy Tue 19-Jul-11 09:22:43

Just wanted to point out that the UK has never had herd immunity to MM and R. Vaccination levels have always been below 95%. in any case, even in countries with above 95% of the population vaccinated there are still outbreaks of the diseases.

PandaNot Tue 19-Jul-11 09:26:21

Autism was first diagnosed as autism in the 1940's but that was just a classification which was developed then. There have always been people with autism, well documented cases in the 16th and 17th centuries but many people with autistic type traits would have been 'locked away' until really quite recently, 1960's. And yes, there are many, many adults with autism, even those in their 80s!

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