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Ofsted - 'rising 5' clause and own ds - does anyone know???

(46 Posts)
underpaidandoverworked Thu 06-May-10 18:55:38

My own son started ft school last Sept and at the time I came out of cm'ing to work in a playgroup but am now back. I had the 'rising-5 clause' added to my registration last year to cover me for a child in reception, which states I can care for 2 children in the Early Years age group - my own son at the time being the third child.

I've asked them to amend my registration to reflect the fact my son is in ft education, expecting them to amend it to 3 under5's, but no more than 5 under8's (ds being the 6th). However, got a call from Ofsted today telling me that my own son is still classed as my rising-5 and that, yes I can have another child in the early years while he is at school, but not before/after school or during school holidays. They added that I can apply for the variation after his 6th birthday in November - even though EYFS only applies until 31st August, although I dont have to follow EYFS for him.

I've had an enquiry for a child 3days a week and if this is the case will have to turn them away, given the numbers/hours I already have. Financially, I need the work. My only other option would be to put my ds with a cm before and after school - how crazy is that, and how upset will he be that mummy is looking after other children but not him! hmm.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Has anyone else had the same situation? Is this Ofsted making it up as they go along again?

SillyMillysMummy Thu 06-May-10 19:17:39

i have an email to the contrary (i think) lol, give me your email addy and i will forward it to you


SillyMillysMummy Thu 06-May-10 19:19:45

found it, came from ofsted by email

Dear Ms Richardson,

Thank you for your e-mail.

The Early Years Foundation Stage ratio requirements for childminders state:

'where four- and five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio'

After consultation our Department for Children Schools and Families (DCSF) colleagues have confirmed that their intention was to maintain the status quo. Therefore, despite the wording in the statutory framework of 'before and after a normal school day', we will interpret this requirement in line with DCSF policy intentions.

Where children aged four and five are in full time education (attending ten education sessions per week) they can be counted as over the age of five, for the purposes of the adult:child ratio only. This still applies during weekends and school holidays.

It is important to note you must still deliver the EYFS to rising fives. In addition you must still register on the Early Years Register if you care for children between the ages of birth and the 31st of August following their fifth birthday unless you are exempt from compulsory registration, even if all these children are rising fives.

To be classed as rising fives children must attend 10 sessions of education a week. During any school half-term holiday periods, any children aged 4 who attend school full time will also be classed as a rising five.

I hope this information helps. However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us


Lucy Gordon

Customer Service Advisor

Ofsted - National Business Unit

underpaidandoverworked Thu 06-May-10 19:20:35

SMM, it's on my CAT. Now I remember why I left cming in the first place...........

underpaidandoverworked Thu 06-May-10 19:25:20

SOOO- their own staff havent got a clue, surprise, surprise. Right, will be back on the phone tomorrow grin. Thanks SMM X

SillyMillysMummy Thu 06-May-10 19:43:17

glad to be of help hun, let me know if you need email sending

looneytune Thu 06-May-10 20:04:10

Was about to post after reading OP to say that the person you spoke to, as usual, clearly didn't have a clue what they were talking about. And now you have the other email as proof!!! Honestly, when will Ofsted get their bloody act together and actually understand the rules themselves?!?!?!! If we individuals can work it out, I don't see why they can't. But we all know Ofsted don't we!!! angry

underpaidandoverworked Thu 06-May-10 20:06:52

SMM can you email that across to me please - ammo against Ofsted smile

SillyMillysMummy Thu 06-May-10 20:17:15

UPAOW - i cant find your email addy blush i am sure have chatted with you before, are your initials CM?

pippin26 Thu 06-May-10 20:53:06

I had all this clarified with OFSTED even had an email stating the rising 5 clause, yet when I had my inspection the inspector told me differently and even though my son is 5 years of age they still class my own son as a rising 5 - yet the child i mind who is 5 is classed in the 5-8 bracket.
Ofsted won't amend my certificate to reflect my son is 5 instead putting the clause regarding rising 5's and telling me I can float my son between the age groups.
Confused - I am.

underpaidandoverworked Thu 06-May-10 21:20:06

pippin - you and me both!

SMM - yup, am CM, we chatted a while ago smile

looneytune Thu 06-May-10 21:55:44

Pippin - having gone through 2 stages of a major complaint process against Ofsted (AND WINNING!!! grin, I now have so much more confidence. If this is still an issue for you, PLEASE complain. I can help with what to do if you need to. They can't do this, it makes no bloody sense at all, honestly, I f'ing hate Ofsted when they're like this angry

SillyMillysMummy Fri 07-May-10 18:31:30

now sent underpaid

LesbianMummy1 Fri 07-May-10 18:45:00

If it is your own child, a foster child or relative’s child who is in full-time education then you do not have to have this condition. Instead you need to ask us to increase the number of children you may have in the early years age group. This is because other children you are responsible for, such as your own children, are not included in the number of children on your certificate. However, we do reduce the number you can care for as a childminder by the number of your own children or any other children you are responsible for such as foster children or grandchildren.

Extract from this document page 4 fourth paragraph down bers-and-ages-of-children-that-childminders-may-care-for

minderjinx Sat 08-May-10 08:04:10

LesbianMummy, that is brilliant - just what I need too. I've been trying to find out what I need to do to be allowed an additional early years child now my own youngest is at school, and so far I've been told by different OFSTED people first that I need to apply for a variation, then that I don't need to because the existing condition on my certificate about caring for children of 4 and five already covers the situation, I shall get back to them and tell them I want a new certificate.

LesbianMummy1 Sat 08-May-10 08:36:44

I know that I have been told various things too, however ds2 is at nursery with a little boy whose mum is on maternity leave and she is an ofsted inspector. It is very helpful as she tells me exactly and the helpline staff are often wrong on things like this which is frustrating and could land you in trouble.

If you get trouble quote the date of publication and they can check their own forms ironic really you might have to do that confused

Virus Tue 13-Jul-10 13:21:19

You guy's need to get your act together, you can't even fathom the amount that the guy’s in the Ofsted contact centre have to remember, you think its hard remembering the EYFS? It’s a few pages for god’s sake, try remembering the national minimum standard’s (which is hundred’s of pages long) and everything to do with school RAISE, SEF as well as all the regulations surrounding schools, early years, social care, children’s centre’s, local authority inspections/regulation, complaints processes, internal processes. If you think you have it hard to remember what you have to maybe you should take a moment to think about the people your slagging off and the amount of work they deal with which is way more than some childminder, you guy's would have a meltdown if you had to do their job!

BoysAreLikeDogs Tue 13-Jul-10 13:29:58


Do you work for Ofsted, Virus?

BoysAreLikeDogs Tue 13-Jul-10 13:35:34

Hmm, first and only post on MN

Nuff said

chitchat07 Tue 13-Jul-10 14:19:11

Virus - I'm not an CM, but I can tell you something, the CMS on mumsnet do have their act together

It is the JOB of the contact centre staff to know that information. If they get it wrong it is not the CM that should be punished for it but invariably they are! If they're not sure, they should check with their supervisor or someone who is more knowledgeable in that particular area.

If a CM gets their requirements wrong because they 'forgot' or 'didn't understand' something will Ofsted go easy on them? No, because it is their duty to know. So should we go easy on the Contact Centre staff??? Not bloody likely!!!!!

Virus Tue 13-Jul-10 14:56:23

You should go easy on them because they have a hell of a lot to remember, no I dont work for Ofsted but if I did I would be very upset by your comments especially since they have so much to remember and god knows no one is perfect. How would you feel if someone was going around your town telling people you werent looking after the kids properlly?!

pippin26 Tue 13-Jul-10 15:57:53

Gosh Virus, I appreciate what you are saying about Ofsted but when you have experience of them - those who 'oversee' what we do, in the circumstances where they tell you one thing on Monday morning, then tell you another thing Monday afternoon and then deny all knowledge of what they have told you, then they tell you and someone who work in a very similar manner two different things - when OFSTED themselves come across as unknowledgeable, inconsistent, unhelpful, biased and heavy handed at times. Ofsted are like traffic wardens - people love to hate them.

I will hold my hands up and say that one two occasions Ofsted have been very prompt to act and extremely helpful with my situations but it was textbook stuff rather than I need to know something.

Virus Tue 13-Jul-10 17:03:57

I can appreciate what you are saying Pippin26, all government departments have issues but believe me when I say that Ofsted are one of the ones who are doing their level best to help everyone. With all the things that they have to remember it's not easy to get it right every time.

I just feel people should think about that before making the assumption that they are just lazy or stupid.

BoysAreLikeDogs Tue 13-Jul-10 17:11:00

meh you are getting on my wick now

<hides thread>

underpaidandoverworked Tue 13-Jul-10 20:24:59

Yoohoo - OP here grin

FWIW, got sorted - am amazed this was resurrected!!! shock

Virus, unless you have experienced Ofsted then really think you should be careful on how you comment on what was a genuine thread by a very experienced CM who was asking advice of even more experienced CMs who I class as 'long distance colleagues' in what can be a very isolated profession!

Thanks for all your advice everyone - I now have another early years place to fill - off to advertise now! smile

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