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Is this CM ratio ok (ofsted wise)?

(22 Posts)
AbandonGups Mon 11-Jan-16 19:17:09

I'm looking at a CM who has already has 2 under 5yr olds in her care, plus their sister as a before/ after school mindee. I'm looking for care for my 2 as return to work soon and she does seem good. She is going to check with ofsted if she can take my 11mth and 4 yr old. Is this likely to be allowed given that it's 2 sets of siblings?

NickNacks Mon 11-Jan-16 19:19:57

Is your 4 yr old at school?

If not then no she can't. Sibling rule only applies to existing families and not new business I'm afraid.

Bonkerz Mon 11-Jan-16 19:21:52

Is the 4 year old in full time school???

She is allowed 3 children under school age and 3 between 5-8
If a child is 4 and in full time reception school class they are classed as rising 5 and included in 5-8 ratio.

If 4 year old is not in school then she would not be able to take on your 2 children. It is not classed as continuity of care because you are new Buisness.

A loop hole would be to register one child for a few months and then start the other as this would technically be continuity of care BUT OFSTED are very inconsistent with this rule and she could be down graded if inspected.

AbandonGups Mon 11-Jan-16 19:26:48

Thanks - that's clear. My 4 yr old starts reception in Sept., but is at pre-school in mornings. The nearly 4 yr old she currently has is at a pre-school, afternoons only - we were talking about the 4yr olds not really seeing much of each other.

NickNacks Mon 11-Jan-16 19:30:06

What about after school and school holidays/inset days? Do they never overlap? If they don't then that's fine, but if they do then she'll be over numbers unfortunately.

AbandonGups Mon 11-Jan-16 19:32:40

There will be one day a week when mine isn't at pre-school (it's not open 5 days) so there is some overlap. Will wait for her to check, but sounds like I best keep looking....
Thanks.

NickNacks Mon 11-Jan-16 19:34:45

Also ofsted won't give her a yes/no answer, they will just refer her to the EYFS statutory framework and from that, what we have said here is the conclusion she should get to too.

Bonkerz Mon 11-Jan-16 19:35:06

Unfortunately the answer would be no in this case.

She would be going over numbers for new Buisness which is not allowed and she could lose her grading or be shut down if OFSTED found out

HSMMaCM Mon 11-Jan-16 20:44:27

Agreed with everyone else. She's only allowed 3 children who are not at full time school at once, except for continuity.

maryann1975 Mon 11-Jan-16 22:56:28

As nicknacks says, ofsted won't give an answer and will tell cm to look at eyfs and make her own descion on it. Your cm might decide it's ok and worth the risk, but if she takes your dc on, she will be going over her ratios and if she gets found out, I suspect ofsted would take a dim view of it.
As a cm it is very frustrating. I needed to go over my numbers for four hours a month for six months. (My own children were involved, DH worked shifts and it was six months till dd was out of my ratios). I had to say no to the family, it wasn't worth the risk, even though I knew I could have coped with the children on my own. I couldn't take the risk of someone putting in a complaint and ofsted turning up and shutting me down. Others wouldn't be so bothered but I play by the rules.

KP86 Mon 11-Jan-16 23:06:00

Maryann, my child minder said she got special permission from OFSTED to go over by one child for a few months, for a few hours per week until they started school. Don't know if it was recently (ie. last year) or current.

Bonkerz Tue 12-Jan-16 07:23:56

KP89. OFSTED haven't done 'special permission since April 2014!

Frusso Tue 12-Jan-16 08:10:58

If the sister that is before and after school is at full-time school then disgraced for this purpose (she's still in 6 u8 ratios there)
That leaves your 2 and the 2 she already haves. If she only ever has 3 of those 4 at any one time she's in ratio. - as long as she's not 1st port of call of something happened whilst one of them is at nursery.
She can't take on both of yours knowing she will be over ratio for one morning. But she can speak to the other parents and see if they can swap days. Or employ an assistant for the hours she is over.

KP86 Tue 12-Jan-16 08:52:01

Bonkerz, maybe it was an old example then. Sorry smile

AbandonGups Tue 12-Jan-16 22:20:00

Interestingly she says ofsted say she can have 4 under 5yrs. Alarm bells??
Thinking about it - there will def be significant time when she has all 4 with her (ie every afternoon from 3.30 when PM nursery finishes) and until Sept when they start reception.
If thems are the rules, I have to say I understand they're there for a reason and as I bearly cope with just the 2 of them at times!!

maryann1975 Tue 12-Jan-16 22:45:41

My example is from 2012, ofsted weren't doing variations then so kp86, if your childminder told you ofsted granted permission since then, I think she might have been telling porky pies. At that time, they were referring cms back to the eyfs and telling them to make their own descion about if the situation was within the rules. i can't remember when it was bought in but I think the eyfs was updated in 2012, so it might have been bought in then.

Bonkerz Wed 13-Jan-16 07:52:52

Abandun I would be very cautious. My concern would be this doesn't come under the rules of continuity of care at all (new Buisness) and OFSTED do not give permission just refer you to the rules!
Ask to see the permission in writing and that should give you the assurance you need.
She wouldn't be covered with insurance etc if something happened and also it's not as simple as that. She needs to get permission from all parents and also risk assess and list how she will manage when over her numbers.

Blondeshavemorefun Wed 13-Jan-16 14:39:30

I've never understood why a cm can't have 4 under 5 but a nanny can - whether one family or say two nanny shares both with baby and toddler /3/4yr

HSMMaCM Wed 13-Jan-16 14:47:33

Blondes - It's obvious. Nannies are super organised mega child carers aren't they? grin

Although I have to say I do notice the extra work when I have an extra child.

Blondeshavemorefun Wed 13-Jan-16 16:29:06

that must be the reason why smile

Frusso Wed 13-Jan-16 17:55:31

But then nannies are only on the voluntary register and don't have to follow the eyfs. And if they don't follow the eyfs they don't have the ratios

maryann1975 Wed 13-Jan-16 20:45:32

I used to be a nanny and am now a cm. my powers as a super organised mega child carer obviously shrunk when I left my last nanny job (which coincided with having dc1, she must have sapped some of my powers as I gave birth to her). wink
If the mix of children are right, I think 4 under 5 could be easier than some combinations of 3 under 5 (I used to cm 3 dc under 18 months, that was hard!). But them are the rules so I have to abide by them however frustrated I get at times with them.

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