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Term time only (self employed) nanny- possible?

(32 Posts)
RP1979 Thu 28-May-15 10:20:45

I know this question has been asked before (sorry!) and I have read all the responses I could find on the various threads, but I am unsure what to do and hope to get a few insightful opinions.

I am looking to use a nanny for the first time when I return to work soon for cover Mon-Thursday 10hrs pd. I found a lovely nanny that is also the parent of my daughter's friend. Naturally this arrangement will benefit us both as she can have her daughter at my house and walk both to school and back etc. In the day she will be looking after my nearly 1yr old.

The problem is that I am looking for a 'term time only nanny' - this suit her too as she can spend holidays with her daughter. I had a term time only childminder previously and she only charged us during term time.

Furthermore she claim she is a self employed nanny and have a self employed tax code? After reading all the threads Im now worried that this is not possible and I need to have more information on this?

Because she also used to work in the nursery my daughter attended I have known her for a few years. She has confirned that she will be paying her taxes, dont want to be paid during school holidays (term time only) and not to worry about a contract as we have known each other for so long.

Two questions:
Is the above even possible
If I insist on doing PAYE will it be pt nanny and how will I manage the zero pay issue during school holidays? Is this something a payroll conpany can do too?

Thank you!

EldonAve Thu 28-May-15 10:28:15

She can't be self employed if she only works for you and she works in your home
www.gov.uk/au-pairs-employment-law/nannies

You can still do PAYE, you just pay nothing during the holidays

Blondeshavemorefun Thu 28-May-15 10:52:33

no she cant be se as a perm job, you need to employ her

always have a contract, even more essential if working for friends/family

yes can have term only contract

ChunkyPickle Thu 28-May-15 11:00:31

She must be an employee, you need to have a contract, and you should specify a pre-tax income, not a take home pay rate as otherwise her other jobs affect how much you end up paying her. It also covers holidays, sickness, transport re-imbursement etc.

I have a similar arrangement with one of my son's friend's mums, and towards the end of each month I send my accountant the hours worked, and my accountant does her payslip and tells me how much to pay her, and how much PAYE/NI I need to pay. During holidays that's more hours for my, but less for you - it doesn't have to be the same each month at all, if that's what's agreed between your nanny and you.

We are also friends, but having the contract keeps it all above board and professional

TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams Thu 28-May-15 12:43:39

She has confirned that she will be paying her taxes, dont want to be paid during school holidays (term time only) and not to worry about a contract as we have known each other for so long
Unfortunately ALL the risk and penalties for not complying with the law is with you and not with her. You will be liable for any taxes that she hasn't paid and all employers NI etc. Plus there will be fines.

bigdonna Thu 28-May-15 14:01:30

im a reg childminder/homecarer this lets me be a self employed nanny i have rang and checked with ofsted

nbee84 Thu 28-May-15 14:05:52

As an employee she will be entitled to some paid holiday - you can't just pay term time and then nothing at all in the holidays. I think, for a full time term time only employee, it works out to be just under 5 weeks. You can insist that this holiday is only taken outside of term time. As mentioned before, if you use a payroll company they will work it out for you and tell you how it should be paid.

RP1979 Thu 28-May-15 14:37:12

Thank you for the responses.
Hmm I will have to think about this as what initially seemed like an easier option might turn out to be less beneficial than using a childminder.

TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams Thu 28-May-15 16:23:30

5 weeks is a normal allowance for a FT all year round employee though?

nannynick Thu 28-May-15 18:01:13

Why would it be less beneficial than using a childminder?

You know her.
She is able to do the short hours you need.
She is willing to do term time only.
She would do the care at your home, so you don't need to worry about going somewhere to collect your children.

You can outsource the payroll, so you don't need to worry about the admin of that. There is some cost to doing it but is it typically under £20 a month.

Have a chat to a nanny payroll company, they don't bite. Research realistically what your annual cost is likely to be for having a nanny, vs using the services of a childminder, vs an after-school club. Look at the pros and cons of each option and consider what is affordable and where your children will be happiest.

RP1979 Thu 28-May-15 18:57:49

Just one more thing- she said that she will speak to hmrc tomorrow to confirm but she sound confident that she could be SE. If they do come back and say she can be self employed nanny is that ok then?
I thought I read on one thread somewhere that even if HMRC confirm it could still be a employment law issue?

nannynick Thu 28-May-15 19:28:50

Holiday Calculation:

10 hours a week, 38 weeks a year (your school year may be longer/shorter)

Assuming they take no holiday during term time
10 hours a week (A) for 38 weeks of the year (B), they work a total of 380
hours a year (C), or 8.19 hours a week (D) over 46.4 weeks of the year. The holiday entitlement is
5.6 weeks x 8.19 hours a week = 45.87 hours holiday for the year (E).

A payroll company can help with holiday pay calculations including what happens if a term time employee takes time off during term time.

nannynick Thu 28-May-15 19:36:10

Employment and Tax laws are different things.

She is not deciding how many hours she works. She is not deciding when to do the work, where to do the work. Plus you could if you wanted to, tell her what to do. This does not point towards self employment.

HMRC don't seem to stop someone running their own business if they really insist on doing so. However a business with one client is not a business. If/when they checked up on, then if they still only have one client, HMRC may decide that it is not really a business and that they are an employee of that client.

Don't put yourself in that position. Get advice from a nanny payroll company. I had a lovely chat with NannyPAYE earlier today and they talk to people about this sort of thing all the time, so give them a call and talk it through with someone who knows.

Has this person told you what pay they would want if they were able to do it on a self employed basis? Or are you deciding what salary to pay?

Blondeshavemorefun Thu 28-May-15 19:48:50

It doesn't matter what hmrc or your friend says - she can't be se if she works for you when you decide the hours days pay etc

You will be the one in the wrong - you will hey the possible £3k fine and you will get the prison sentence if the courts decide to go that far

Holiday as nick calculated

nbee84 Thu 28-May-15 20:58:17

Treadsoftly - 5.6 weeks is normal for an all year round employee. They work 46.4 weeks per year.

A term time only employee works 39 weeks per year, assuming any holiday is not taken during term time (so actually only 7.4 weeks short of a year round employee) and is entitled to just under 5 weeks paid holiday - I'm unsure of the exact amount but think it's about 4.8.

Nannynick has detailed the best way to work it out.

EldonAve Thu 28-May-15 21:10:47

you can calculate the holiday entitlement here www.gov.uk/calculate-your-holiday-entitlement

westcountrywoman Thu 28-May-15 21:21:02

I employ term-time only staff (not nannying). We have to pay them for 5 weeks' holiday a year, the rest of the school holidays are unpaid. We mutually agreed to pro-rata the annual salary so we pay the same amount every month. It makes it easier for the staff to budget and it's easy for the payroll too.

RP1979 Fri 29-May-15 10:36:39

Thank you everyone. I will phone and have a chat with NannyPAYE.
Thanks for the warnings too, I defnitely do not want a fine or prison sentence for that matter!

RP1979 Fri 29-May-15 10:45:22

Nannynick she gave me the rate that she would be happy with.

She has just cinfirmed that she phoned Hmrc this morning who told her she can be SE nanny as she 'is already SE'. They are looking to see if they can send written confirmation.

Anyone else been in this situation with a SE nanny?

Sallycinnamum Fri 29-May-15 10:56:11

OP, I have used a self employed nanny in the past and had it confirmed by HmRC in writing.

She invoiced us at the end of each month, used her own equipment such as books, pushchairs and crucially worked for other families too.

In fact, I know of several self employed nannies who are all ofsted registered and it is all above board.

My understanding is they have to dictate the hours and must work for other families too because if they're working for one sole family, they become your employee.

TheGirlFromIpanema Fri 29-May-15 11:13:08

I would, at the very least, ask if she could get some other clients by way of offering occaisional or ad-hoc childcare.

This would solve the main and most visible issue with regards to her not being your employee.

You are of course allowed to contract her for whatever hours you see fit and she can accept to work those hours iyswim. I would also do as Sally said and ask if she can provide her own 'materials'.

One of the criteria for being SE is that the person contracted can arrange their own replacement if necessary but you can agree informally between yourselves that this will never happen and I'd eat my hat if Hmrc ever used that one point alone in defining employment over SE with regards to care of children iyswim.

RP1979 Fri 29-May-15 11:18:03

Thats interesting and hopeful. Unfortunately I think thats part of the problem though as at the moment we will be the only family she work for.

Sallycinnamum Fri 29-May-15 11:23:52

That is absolutely it thegirlfrom, she must be able to prove should hmrc ever need it which is highly unlikely that she works for other families too should this be occasional babysitting or nannying.

Also make sure she invoices you so you've got proof she is telling you what you have tp pay her rather than the other way round.

My old nanny had another nanny we could use if she was I'll too although the need never arose for us.

RP1979 Fri 29-May-15 11:43:03

That is very helpful thanks! I will have a word with her. I am sure she does occasional babysitting- does this count?

TheGirlFromIpanema Fri 29-May-15 13:18:34

If those babysitting jobs are recorded/invoiced as actual paid jobs then yes they will count :-)

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