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unregistered CM

(41 Posts)
fairylightsinthesnow Mon 28-Jan-13 09:16:33

We think we have found a perfect new CM but she is still working toward being registered - paperwork issues rather than real ones IFSWIM but other than not being able to use childcare vouchers, are there any other downsides to this? We need to start with her right away having given notice to our current one due to DS being manifestly unhappy with her. sad Many thanks for any input

hollie11 Thu 31-Jan-13 14:02:57

I am a cm and work mon-fri 8am-6pm (50 hours per week) I don't think it's a matter of not enough hours!

HSMM Mon 28-Jan-13 20:42:07

I'm a Childminder. If I want to, I'll have 1 client and work 1 or 60 hrs per week, but I'll still be self employed and they still can't sack me. (And yes ... I know I don't have to be registered to work 1 hr per week)

Flisspaps Mon 28-Jan-13 20:36:48

It may be nit-picking to you, but as a self-employed person, it is important to me. To sack someone is to terminate the employment of an employee.

I am not an employee, ergo I cannot be sacked.

You can however, terminate your contract, or give notice.

MrAnchovy Mon 28-Jan-13 20:32:39

Perhaps that was a bit harsh, I'll take it back - but if you are going to make a statement about what HMRC say you should check your references first, and if it is something controversial or difficult to find preferably provide a reference like this one.

As it happens there is a crucial difference between TotallyBS's situation and fairylightsinthesnow.

If you pay a person who is a friend to look after your child in the person's house and you pay them other than in cash (or cash equivalent such as vouchers) then that person does NOT have to register as a childminder.

Ofsted's guidance on this is here.

fairylightsinthesnow Mon 28-Jan-13 20:21:54

thanks totally that is pretty much exactly our situation. DH and I are minded to let this person take over after our notice period is up and help her in any way we can to get qualified PDQ. She is highly recommended by people who know her well and she has her own kids, all known to those who have recommended her. We are in a bit of sticky situation here and (assuming she will do it) would rather solve it by having the kids well looked after than sticking to the letter of the law. For various reasons to do with locations and schools we don't have a large pool of options. As far as the incipient bunfight is concerned, I'll leave you ladies to it, but my understanding was always that CM are self-employed and nannies are employed by you. To say you can't "sack" a CM, whilst possibly technically correct, is nit-picking. If you choose to dispense with using someone's services, because they are not meeting your expectations, then you are, in effect, sacking them.

ReetPetit Mon 28-Jan-13 20:18:22

high 5 fight grin

Fightlikeagirl Mon 28-Jan-13 20:14:34

Childminders are NOT employed by anyone. We are SELF employed and parents/carers pay us for a service. Many of us work full time and we DO pay NI and tax if we earn over the threshold but sort this out ourselves.

No aggression just winds me up when people say they employ childminders!!!

< High 5 Reet, Zoo and MaryP >

ReetPetit Mon 28-Jan-13 20:14:28

just for you Totally,as you still seem to be unable to grasp the concept - you have never employed a cm - you were her client. and cms do not have employers. they run their own businesses. this is why they pay their own tax and ni - nothing to do with hours worked. hope this is clearer mow Totally wink

BoysAreLikeDogs Mon 28-Jan-13 20:07:04

ooh Mr A <swoon>

MrAnchovy Mon 28-Jan-13 19:57:59

"HMRC's ruling is that if someone works for you for more than x hours then that person is deemed to be an employee."

No it isn't.

This isn't the kind of forum where you can just make up stuff and say how important you are and people take note of what you are saying: perhaps you would find an audience elsewhere?

TotallyBS Mon 28-Jan-13 19:54:08

Ok Reet, if you want to be pedantic about it, I told the CM that her services was no longer required. Happy now?

TotallyBS Mon 28-Jan-13 19:48:38

Mary - if a CM has several clients then by definition that CM obviously cannot be employed by several people. Hence the self employed status.

But Zoo was accusing me of dodging employers NI for the mum that I was using as a CM. My 'explainationo' was directed at THAT scenario. If a CM only had one client AND her hours was above a certain threshold then HMRC would deem that person to be an employee.

In the case of your 40 hour CM, if she had only one client then she can insist that her employer pays NI. Whether such a CM presses such a claim is another matter.

Anyway, this knowledge comes from being an employer abeit on a very small scale and from running a 5 person business. Believe it or don't believe it. I'm not sufficiently interested in this thread to want to convince Zoo and Reet of my 'explanation'

ReetPetit Mon 28-Jan-13 19:45:43

lol at totally, whos been going on about firing and sacking her cm for ages....
you can not,as others have said,sack or fire soneone who is not your employee....

HSMM Mon 28-Jan-13 19:27:04

I'm a CM and I work 50+ hrs per week. I'm self employed because I dictate my hours, set my charges, provide a setting, decide when I'm available and no one can sack me.

Flisspaps Mon 28-Jan-13 19:20:24

You cannot sack a CM as they're not your employee.

TotallyBS Mon 28-Jan-13 19:17:41


We sacked our CM because she wasn't nice to my kids. We couldn't find another one. A mom that we knew from the school offered to help. Rather than take advantage of her we offered her what we was paying the CM. She then decided she wanted to be a 'proper' CM so she did the paperwork inc CRB and the job became 'official' ie I paid the money into her bank once a week.

I have absolutely no idea whether she declared the income but what has that got to do with me? I mean, if your waitress doesn't declare her tips then should I flame you?

My situation was similar to the OPs so I thought that I share my experience. If you want to turn this into bun fight about imagined tax evasion then I'm not playing.

MaryPoppinsBag Mon 28-Jan-13 19:05:53

Some CM do 40 hour weeks for their families though. So TotallyBS your explanation doesn't make sense.

Childminders are self employed because they run their own businesses. Nothing to do with the hours they work.
They provide a service for many different families like a pre-school or nursery does and parents pay for that service. And are not employed by anyone.

Not being aggressive just saying.

<high 5's Zoo >

ZooAnimals Mon 28-Jan-13 18:56:18

'Zoo - what is the source of your aggression?'

I don't like people who tax evade.

ZooAnimals Mon 28-Jan-13 18:55:20

'The nature of the job is that CMs don't work enough hours to qualify as a full time employee hence the self employed situation.'

That is absolute crap.

TotallyBS Mon 28-Jan-13 18:35:06

High 5 InNeed.

TotallyBS Mon 28-Jan-13 18:31:48

Zoo - what is the source of your aggression? Did I dump on you in another thread?

Your aggressive questioning aside, the mom looked after our kids after school. Once she got her paperwork sorted we made it formal complete with contract.

After a while our work commitments were such that we hired a nanny complete with CRB, NIC and the complete works.

InNeedOfBrandy Mon 28-Jan-13 18:26:06

<high 5s totallybs> just because I love the in ya face comment grin

TotallyBS Mon 28-Jan-13 18:21:44

Reet - Before you make fun of other people you should ensure you aren't talking out of your arse.

HMRC's ruling is that if someone works for you for more than x hours then that person is deemed to be an employee. This is to prevent employers hiring someone full time and then refusing to pay employers NI, pay sick leave, provide annual leave etc.

The nature of the job is that CMs don't work enough hours to qualify as a full time employee hence the self employed situation.

The above knowledge comes from having employed 2 CMs and 4 nannies. In addition, DP and I run a small business. So, in ya face Reet.

HiccupHaddockHorrendous Mon 28-Jan-13 17:36:27

While my friend was registering, she was asked to look after a child and was advised by cssiw to look after her for free until her registration came through. She just looked after her before and after school, a couple of days a week though.

Whilst I do appreciate that cms need to be registered, I do feel that a parent has the right to choose the best person to look after their dc whether they are registered, registering or neither.

MaryPoppinsBag Mon 28-Jan-13 17:14:24

I was asked to do this by a parent who had parted company with her CM. She asked me early on in September to do it and I said no.
It took me until mid November to get Ofsted out and another week to get my certificate.

The thing with Ofsted is you don't know how long they are going to take. I would have been breaking the Law for 2 months - no thanks.
My 'paperwork' took 4 months to process!

As you have left your current CM in a hurry I wouldn't want to run the risk of her reporting your new one to Ofsted.l either.

Have you seen her CRB?

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