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ofsted and over 8's

(22 Posts)
fudgesmummy Sat 27-Oct-12 21:56:32

Hi all-I have managed to upset the mum of a mindee who will be 10 in the new year. She has given me notice which I'm not bothered about but she is the sort that I think will try and make trouble for me. If she decided to complain to ofsted would they be interested seeing the child is over 8? Also if ofsted did decide to pay me a visit would I be within my rights to refuse them entry seeing as she is over 8?

MrsCantSayAnything Sat 27-Oct-12 22:05:22

Yes they would be interested. No. You would not be within your rights to refuse them entry.

this document explains things

nannynick Sat 27-Oct-12 22:28:11

Ofsted have power of entry if you are registered on the Early Years Register or Childcare Register, or both.

If you were caring for the child in the child's own home, then I don't think they have power of entry... for example they need to get permission from the employers of a nanny to conduct an inspection of that nanny in the house in which the nanny works. Thus some nanny inspections are done at other locations, such as a local cafe.

fudgesmummy Tue 30-Oct-12 19:49:20

Thanks x

Italiana Tue 30-Oct-12 21:25:22

Nannynick...I never knew that inspections can be carried in the local cafe...why would the parents refuse entry to their home if the inspection is to reassure them the nanny is doing a good job? what does the ispector judge in terms of care, activities provided etc in a cafe?

Just curious as this is amazing

MrAnchovy Tue 30-Oct-12 21:50:52

"what does the ispector judge in terms of care, activities provided etc in a cafe?"

Nothing - delivery of the EYFS is not required for home childcarers. The scope of an inspection for a home childcarer is limited to the statutory requirements for Part II of the childcare register (i.e. voluntary registration) - common core, first aid and insurance (CRB is only checked on first application).

Here is the current boilerplate for a Part II Home Childcarer inspection report:

The Childcare Register: inspection outcome - compliant

An Ofsted inspector, [***], inspected your childcare provision on

At the time of the visit the inspector confirmed that you were complying with all of the requirements of registration for the Childcare Register.

Your registration on the Childcare Register will continue.

Please read the Requirements for the Childcare Register which accompanies this
letter carefully, as you must continue to meet these requirements in order to remain registered on the Childcare Register.

If you have any questions please contact us on 0300 123 1231 quoting the reference number at the top of this letter.

Yours sincerely
Susan Gregory HMI
National Director, Inspection Delivery

Italiana Tue 30-Oct-12 21:56:32

Well Thank you Mr Anchovy...I learn something every day...even more amazed now and puzzled but won't linger on that.

MrAnchovy Tue 30-Oct-12 22:05:52

Also Ofsted don't have a power of entry (to Childminders' or nursery premises) in the same way as the Police do. If they are refused entry they would have to gain a court order, and would need to persuade a judge that their reason for entry was compatible with their powers under relevant legislation. Given that Ofsted do not regulate childcare for children over 7 it is difficult to see that a judge would be resonable in granting an order in relation to a complaint regarding a 10 year old, unless the nature of the complaint was such that a safeguarding issue may arise in respect of younger children falling within the scope of Ofsted's powers under the Acts.

nannynick Tue 30-Oct-12 22:06:30

I'm not sure why you are puzzled Italiana. Home Childcarers have never been regulated by Ofsted, they are only Registered by Ofsted. Least that's my view of it... Ofsted just check that someone meets the requirements to be on the register, not judge the level of care provided. It is up to the Home Childcarer's employer to judge the level of care by deciding to employ them or to terminate the employment.

MrAnchovy Tue 30-Oct-12 22:14:49

It's a very relevant question Italiana, in fact there is anecdotal evidence that individual inspectors have been just as unaware of what Ofsted's powers and duties are in respect of Home Childcarers.

Given the apparently poor training and reportedly low remuneration and poor motivation among inspectors, who are now employees of private contractors, is it any wonder that a parent may not wish to allow them into their home?

See also this thread with links to others.

nannynick Tue 30-Oct-12 22:25:39

"Ofsted don't have a power of entry (to Childminders' or nursery premises) in the same way as the Police do. If they are refused entry they would have to gain a court order"

True it's not in the same way as the police do - the police can use force, a CCI cannot. So if they are blocked from entry, then they can take further action by getting the police to attend and force entry.

Relevant legislation I believe is:
Childcare Act 2006: Rights of Entry

If it were a safeguarding issue regarding a 10 year old, would a judge really consider that might not also be a safeguarding issue concerning all children in the childminders care? Who knows what a judge would rule - I wonder if it's ever actually got as far as a judge needing to rule on it.

nannynick Tue 30-Oct-12 22:41:18

More about rights of entry in the CIE Handbook - 31b Investigation Planning is where I would look first for more about procedure Ofsted follow if they are refused entry.

MrAnchovy Tue 30-Oct-12 23:06:15

The registration of Home Childcarers (nannies) is an anomoly and only exists so that childcare vouchers can be used.

MrAnchovy Tue 30-Oct-12 23:07:25

"I wonder if it's ever actually got as far as a judge needing to rule on it."

That is irrelevent - a judgement in these circumstances would be made on the merits of the case, not on precedent.

MrAnchovy Tue 30-Oct-12 23:08:47

"then they can take further action by getting the police to attend and force entry."

... after issue of a warrant (a court order) as it says in the Act you referenced

Italiana Wed 31-Oct-12 21:51:18

I am puzzled not about the expalnation, which is good, but with all that is going on at present in the race to search for an answer to the childcare costs...I will come back at a later stage

Tanith Thu 01-Nov-12 10:09:59

At my induction course, 10 years ago, an OFSTED officer stood up and terrified everyone by telling us all the powers she had. One of those powers was to demand immediate entrance to our homes and it was illegal to refuse her entry.
So she said...

MrAnchovy Thu 01-Nov-12 11:26:12

I'm not sure what the situation was 10 years ago, the current powers were established in 2006.

However all of that is true - it is an offence to refuse entry. The difference is that if you do refuse, an inspector is not allowed to push you out of the way and stride into your house unless accompanied by a police officer with a warrant.

nannynick Thu 01-Nov-12 12:22:10

When I was there in 03/04 the CCI TMs and maybe the CCIs had an official warrant issued by a court giving the named person access to any Ofsted registered premises. Legislation changed following Childcare Act 2006, I no longer worked for Ofsted then so their power of entry could be different now and reading the legislation it does seem that they need to apply for acwarrant on each occasion, rather than having pre-authorised warrant document on them.

Tanith Thu 01-Nov-12 20:44:46

Ah! - she didn't mention the warrant and the police officer smile

Italiana Fri 02-Nov-12 08:55:42

All this is rather scary...would anyone wish to put this question to Ofsted for 'clarification'?...
if you do I will ensure that it is on the questions asked on 17 Nov at the workshop...

I am no expert but I understand that Ofsted have right of entry when a concern has been reported to them that warrants an 'unannounced and immediate visit'... safeguarding is one of them but surely the provider also has the right to feel comfortable with that and a right to know what the complaint is?

In any other instance Ofsted used to write to inform the provider a complaint had been received and ask for evidence as per complaint procedure...Ofsted would then uphold the complaint or reject it

Things have changed dramatically since 2006 especially with the EYFS 2012 and that is why Ofsted are busy churning out publications every other day

MrAnchovy Fri 02-Nov-12 16:32:40

Things like powers of entry, offences and penalties are established in primary legislation (i.e. an Act of Parliament having received Royal Assent), in this case the Childcare Act 2006. A Statutory Framwork like EYFS 2012 is a document drafted by civil servants and signed off by a single Minister and includes details of what is required in order to meet the standards laid down in primary legislation, but cannot alter the powers etc. granted or imposed by an Act nor can it impose new powers affecting the person or property.

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