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Truss in the Telegraph

(34 Posts)
fraktion Tue 16-Oct-12 10:00:41


A distinctly toned down version IMO. Still pointing st other countries without, I think, really understanding the systems there or the overall quality of childcare as measured against British standards...

MrAnchovy Tue 16-Oct-12 10:20:04

Notable though that she has publicly abandoned the Dutch agency model.

MaryPoppinsBag Tue 16-Oct-12 11:54:44

Do the other countries subsidise childcare?
I don't see how individual childminders or private nurseries can cut costs.

State run childcare such as Surestart nurseries are heavily subsidised, staff being paid over £9 an hour, but charge £3.50 an hour, whereas in the private nursery down the road staff were paid a lot less most on minimum wage. And Surestart nurseries have lots of funding for resources.

I couldn't possibly charge less as a CM because I just wouldn't want to do it for less than £3.50 an hour (cheap area most charge £3-3.50 per hour).

It always riles me when they start talking about Childminders being to expensive, it's as though we are being greedy. We aren't we are just earning a fair living for what is a very intrusive job!

fraktion Tue 16-Oct-12 12:13:12

In France I pay 2.70€/hour (income based and that's the highest because we had a joint income of more than 50k€) for crèche. That would be the same for a network CM. The state effectively budgets x per hour per child and gives the nursery that, minus the income that the nursery had the previous year. So every state nursery gets the same and there's a big incentive to be careful with money. They can apply to the town for major works/investment but the day to day running costs must be covered by the income. Very few private nurseries. Very few private nurseries, some parental cooperatives which are cheaper because half the adults on ratio are parents.

Non-network CMs charge what they like but there's a minimum wage equivalent. Nannies are minimum wage at least, like in the UK. The state either gives a means tested grant or allows you to deduct 50% of the cost of your CM/nanny from your tax return.

So totally different and financially very viable but probably not under the UK fiscal system.

Italiana Tue 16-Oct-12 21:31:33

Apologies Fraktion I did not see this post so have put another one tonight
Also added a report for IPPR arguing against Truss' dutch model

MrAnchovy Tue 16-Oct-12 22:14:53

I said this earlier: "Notable though that she has publicly abandoned the Dutch agency model", but now I am not so sure. What she actually said was "Ofsted will still inspect individual childminders."

But she also said "The underlying philosophy is similar to the Government’s school reforms: *trusting local leaders to deliver*". What local leaders? Childminder agencies? If now is the time for plain speaking then let's have plain speaking, not riddles that say one thing but mean something else.

Italiana Tue 16-Oct-12 22:20:09

Many c/ms may feel we have won but as I said in the other post we need proposals on the table and clear explanation that agencies have been abandoned together with the increase in ratio

While I feel is DfE has been listening to our concerns and suggestions but we must wait for her announcement
She will speak at Daycare Trust conference on 4 Dec so maybe some more news will come out ...I am going so glad to report

nannynick Wed 17-Oct-12 00:01:25

If Ofsted are still going to inspect individual childminders, who is going to pay for that? Wonder if they will go down the full cost recovery line, passing the cost of inspections to the childcare providers - but if they did that, would that push up the cost of childcare?

Oh it's still all a mess isn't it. One day what the Government has decided to do will be known, until then it's still all riddles.

Italiana Wed 17-Oct-12 08:58:19

Many c/ms are willing to pay their way and pay more in line with other providers

Our registration fee at £35 is not sustainable and was agreed many years ago...time for a rethink...I think that may come out of the Childcare Commission
Lets wait and see

MaryPoppinsBag Wed 17-Oct-12 10:47:15

I will quit if they pass on the cost.
As I doubt I could pass on the cost to parents.

Italiana Wed 17-Oct-12 13:37:35

Would you not rather pay a higher registration fee and stay independent to being under an agency and pay them to run your business?

fraktion Wed 17-Oct-12 13:42:44

I wonder whether it's heading to partially removing the obligation for EYFS. I've said a fair few times and not just here that if you deliver funding you should be inspected on the education you provide. If you don't want to provide that sort of environment or a parent doesn't want that for their child there should be an opt out, which would make inspections shorter and therefore cheaper. Plus that form of childcare itself may well be cheaper as CMs would spend less time on paperwork!

It may eventually be possible to divorce the safeguarding aspect from the educational side if people want to (and they may well not but that's their choice - the CMs who left the profession when EYFS came in might come back though).

They definitely need to look at how funding is allocated though.

MaryPoppinsBag Wed 17-Oct-12 13:47:41

Yes I suppose I would rather pay a higher fee and remain independent. But it does depend on how much.

Currently I am not working at my full capacity if I was I'd be more willing to pay.
I have just started so haven't done a tax return yet so really have no idea how much I'll take for the year since June (when I started)

MaryPoppinsBag Wed 17-Oct-12 13:51:05

I don't know whether many would give up the EYFS.
A lot of the CM's I know seem to like being busy! And enjoy the professionalism the EYFS have given them.

Also if you decide not to comply with the EYFS (if it becomes an option) you will become less attractive to some parents. Thereby losing custom.

fraktion Wed 17-Oct-12 14:15:24

Unless from the gov point of view there are more CMs and they become cheaper as a result.

Plus it would allow more informal before/after school arrangements between friends if the only requirements were like the vOCR and you didn't need the extra paperwork. Maybe CMs would offer longer on the evening if they knew they weren't going to have to give up precious family time to do records.

They want more, affordable childcare. Remove obstacles and more people will register. More CMs is more competition this lower cost. Not good for CMs but it ticks their boxes and some sectors of the public at least would support it.

CMs who want to would be able to keep EYFS but there will be some who will wave it goodbye and others who would register if it wasn't there as well as parents who don't care about the paperwork IMO.

MaryPoppinsBag Thu 18-Oct-12 08:07:06

I have no doubt the aim is to lower the cost. But in my area £3.50 is the top end of the fees, some work for £3.00 an hour.
How can it be fair to CMs to make it cheaper than that.
I can only have 2 pre schoolers and if I charged £3 per hour I'd be working for less that the minimum wage. Granted I'd be there for my DC's but the intrusion into your home is massive and quite frankly I want a decent reward for it.

Oh well I shall wait and see.

GrimAndHumourless Thu 18-Oct-12 08:54:07

Wait and see

I am a bit perplexed by the local leaders thing, wondering if it means the local authority to become the agency. Hmmmm.

Elinda Fri 19-Oct-12 04:01:05

In Sweden you pay 3 percent of the households total income for a full time nursery but only up to max 120 pounds a month.

For child 2 you pay a further 2 percent or max 80 pounds.

3rd child 1 percent/40 pounds.

4th child is free if charge.

In reality every nursery place cost about 16k so it's heavily subsidised. And salaries are a lot higher in Sweden as well.

Italiana Sat 20-Oct-12 07:36:05

Following Truss' report in the Telegraph there has been a reply from Sharon Hodgson Shadow Minister for children then one from the IPPR and also this fantastic response from Polly Toynbee in The guardian about 'baby farming'...I like her comments about Truss looking after 5 tots!!!

at least childcare has now come up the front as topic and everyone is talking about it
Labour seem to be looking at the Scandinavian model too but we must rememnber they pay 50% tax for a wonderful health and childcare system...we would not do it here but certainly we need an improvement starting with the DfE looking at what it funds and the waste of money around the red tape

nannynick Sat 20-Oct-12 21:27:30

Truss has made it onto Mumsnet AIBU.

Elinda Mon 22-Oct-12 11:30:17

"Scandinavian model too but we must rememnber they pay 50% tax for a wonderful health and childcare system"

Incorrect, sweden har a tax of 35% and no additional national incurance.
And we earn a LOT more money. For example a Tesco cashier earns around £6.89/hr here in Sweden the equivelent role pays £10.61

So takehome is greater whilst childcare is cheap.

MrAnchovy Tue 23-Oct-12 17:23:53

"Incorrect, sweden har a tax of 35% and no additional national incurance."

No, the equivalent of national insurance for employers in Sweden is 31.42%

So in the UK the employer pays 13.8% NI and the employee 12% NI and 20% Income Tax for a total of 45.8% and in Sweden the employer pays 31% the employee 32% for a total of 62%. Except that ignores the fact that the first £7.5k ish in the UK is free of tax and NI making the effective rate in the UK lower still.

VAT in Sweden is 25%, in the UK 20%.

Italiana Tue 23-Oct-12 18:55:09

Well it maybe that the scandinavian model is not one Truss would she has gone to France to look at high quality childcare there...probably at tax payers' expense following the huge sum spent on the childcare Commission which obviously she is going to ignore

So Dutch model is out of the window...maybe, Scandinavian too expensive ...what do they do in France that can be reflected in our culture?

fraktion Tue 23-Oct-12 19:08:26

I would pay double, triple, more (and did) for UK style childcare.

If Truss wants to follow France she can scrap the EYFS, planning, observations, any notion of Every Child Matters and have a nation of little automatons.

There was no way on this earth I was putting DS into a French nursery or with an assistante maternelle so I paid 15€/hour for a love in nanny. It's only how he's older and doesn't nap he goes to crèche but they don't do activities and communication with parents is a attracted and possibly dangerous thing.

<huge generalisation>

The culture is entirely different. But their funding streams make sense.

Italiana Tue 23-Oct-12 19:53:45

Wonder if you are on Twitter and would send this message to Truss as she relaxes with a glass of red wine and tries to get ideas from there to bring to a very different culture here....
I think she has no idea where to start and is scratching at anything she can think of...she had no ideas when I met her in August and still looking for the penny to drop!!!

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