anyone had a 4th degree tear, how did you go on to have your next baby? vaginal or cs?

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

would it even be possible to have a homebirth even when your pom pom and arse is all scared as hell

would the skin even stech enough with all that scar tissue for a natural delivery?

[theautomatic]

I had third degree tear which was bad enough so really feel for you with your fourth degree tear. I was told, that as I dont (thankfully) have any continence issue I could have a vaginal birth again. Was told they would do an episiostomy on me as scar tissue doesnt stretch very well. I've since read that an episiostomy isnt the best thing and is an outdated idea, but thats another story.... I was told that I wouldnt be allowed a homebirth because of all the complications I suffered last time including huge blood loss. However, I guess if I put my foot down they couldnt very easily stop me having a homebirth...

I think you're very brave to consider a homebirth, for me, it would have to be a c-section next time round. It took me a long time to get over my tear. How do you feel now, physically?

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

the auto sorry to hear about your 3rd degree tear.
how long ago did it happen?

my dd is 17months old.

i do get very sore down there, its really annoying how some clothes really rub the scars and it kills

if i get diahorea or constipation i do not feel confident, and i feel i have to get to the loo quick.
i also cannot hold gas in so good.
if i get constipated its kills going to the toilet.
i also now have a massive phobia of smear tests etc.
also my fanjo looks like frankinsteins fanny, one side is bigger than the other

when i had dd i was left in the hospital alone for 8 hours,when i was 4 cms dilated was a horrible experience, i even suffered flashbacks and nightmares.

so if there was a next time i would want a homebirth so at least i wasnt just left on my own, or a cs.
which is kinda swinging from one extreme to the other i guess.

[SpecialOffer]

I had a 4th degree tear with my ds who is also 17 months!!

I am pregnant with no2, and am debating the whole birth thing. I was told my mw I could have a natural birth if I wanted, and consultant told me he would recommend a cs.

Mt friend had a 3rd degree with her ds, wasn't allowed birth centre or homebirth with dd, but she gave birth naturally with only a 2nd degree tear.

I get very sore down there, and some similar toilet issues, but not as bad as you.

I am planning on asking mw to see my notes when I book in with her in two weeks, and take it from there. I think I am heading towards cs as I am so terrified of a similar experience to my ds.

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

special good luck.
let me know how you get on with the midwives.

how do you fel emotionally about it all?

i think i am still in shock, had no idea you could get such bad damages from childbirth.

i am thinking about going to see someone to go through my notes but i feel a bit of a twat and not sure how to go about it.

[theautomatic]

Its been about 3 years since it happened, ALovely, and I still think about it a lot, even now. I've actually thought a lot about having a homebirth next time round (trying ttc at the moment!) and I can relate to what you say about not wanting to be left on your own in hospital again. However, the thought of something going badly wrong puts me off a bit, I would have died last time if I'd had been at home because of the blood loss. Then again, I might not have torn so badly if I'd given birth at home and not had midwives screaming at me to keep pushing, even though I had no inclination to push at the time...

I spend a lot of time looking at my bits- I just wish I'd spent more time looking at them when they pre giving birth so I could compare. I have heard that giving birth naturally a second time can do your damaged bits some good in terms of loosening up hard scar tissue etc. I'm not sure if its a risk I'm prepared to take though!

If you ring up your hospital and ask to speak to someone in PALS they should, easily, be able to organise for someone to go through your notes with me. I did this, and a midwife (not the one who delivered me though) came to my house to talk me through what happened. To be honest I didnt find it very helpful, midwife just said theres nothing that could have been done differently etc, which I dont believe to be the case...

Going through your notes may help you though? Good luck with everything. Its so awful that women have to go through this, in this day and age.

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

the auto, thanks for your reply.
did you have a follow up after the op?
what did the consultant say about cs?
mine said it was up to me
do you think if we want a cs we will have to fight for one?

good luck with the ttc

[SpecialOffer]

Emotionally I am still very scarred by it all, probably more than the physical stuff.

I had dreams and flashbacks for ages, and it has only started to get better recently. I also spend a lot of my time looking at my bits, but alas have no real idea what they looked like before!!

The birth is on my mind a lot atm, EVERYONE is asking "what are you going to do?".

Part of me CRAVES the natural, lovely birth I had always wanted - that moment when they place baby on you, but I never got that. I was whisked off to theatre, not able to see my baby for hours. I want a calm birth, with no panic, no hospital stays etc, but am also so scared abotu going through labour again. Guess I am going to have to wait and see how I feel later on.

I know it has to be my decision, whatever people say. Just need to look at pros and cons of both ways!

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

special, what do you say to everyone that asks "what are you going to do?".
simply say don't know?

yes ikwym i was seperated from dd for 2-3 hours after see was born

[theautomatic]

ALovely, I think it depends who you speak to re whether we'll have to fight to get a c-section next time round. All the midwives who spoke to me said that I should have no problem convincing a consultant to give me a c-section but then when I asked a consultant he said if it was up to him he'd want me to have a vaginal birth... Another consultant I asked said he would prefer to do a c-section rather than repair a third or fourth degree tear. For me, I think I will demand a c-section and keep pushing it until they agree.

I had a very unsatisfactory follow up after the repair. I've heard, through mumsnet, that other women who've had such bad tears have automatically been given appointments for physio, ultrasound treatments (to help with scar tissue) and anal scans (to see how much damage has been done to the anal sphincter) but I had none of these, was pretty much left to get on with it. At my follow up appointment I told the consultant I was in a lot of pain and he implied that it was like having "an old war injury" that I'd have to put up with. As you can imagine I wasnt impressed. Finding a decent, caring consultant, I think, is half the battle..

I have heard about women with third degree and fourth degree tears having a natural birth and I must say, from what I read, most of them dont seem to have torn so badly again, something to do with our bits already being stretched so much. What a pleasant thought!

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

the auto thanks for your reply.
i think if i wanted a cs and they where resisting ill say if you can cast iron guarantee my injuries will not get worse then maybe i will go for a vaginal, if my injuries get worse im holding you personally responsible!

that might test there nerve.

the problem is there is no definative answer really its pot luck.

i would just be so scared about the skin not streching and the baby getting stuck also.

i am going to contact pals tomorrow while i am boyed up by you and special iyswim.
strike while the irons hot before i lose my nerve.
im going to feel silly calling them.

[theautomatic]

Don't feel silly calling them, trust me, they'll receive calls like this on a daily basis and will know exactly what to do. Loads of women ask for their notes and want to go over through their notes with a midwife, gp etc. I really hope it helps you.

Let us know how you get on, will check in tomorrow (no pressure!).

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

hi auto, i called them this am, spoke to pals who gave me the number for medical records, because i want to see my notes
pals also said they would arrange for me to talk to someone about it if i want them to. the lady was very nice, and i didnt feel silly.

then i spoke to medical records and they are going to email an application to see my records
they said to costs upto 50quid, which is alot of money to me.
but i think i might be able to go in a view them for upto 2 hours for free.
or for 10 pounds or something.

anyway suppose i made the first steps today

thanks for your help

[theautomatic]

That's great news! £50 is a lot of money. Definitely worth trying to view the notes for free if you can. Glad that you didn't feel silly either, I knew you wouldn't! Definitely worth taking them up on their offer of someone going through your notes with you as well. Keep me updated!

Did anyone ever say why you had such a bad tear? I was told mine was because baby came out with her arm up by her face and she was back to back as well. I dont blame my baby (obviously) but cant help thinking they would have known this if they'd done a scan during the 3 hours plus I was trying to push her out...

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

thanks auto
thansk for egging me on.
i got the email request form so i will let you know how i get on.

i really want to see the notes before talking to somethough iyswim.

they told me it was just bad luck

i had no drugs so that didnt affect anything
i was on all fours
i was fully dilated
spontaneus labour
i was calm and felt like i could do it.

it was a seeminly very good birth.

[FelB]

Hello Alovely,

I had a third degree tear with my first baby who is now 8 months old. I found the whole thing really traumatic - the hospital stay, theatre, tranfusion, what felt like endless people looking at my bits for weeks afterwards. But I was lucky - I saw a consultant who was nice and suggested I see a midwife to talk through my notes. I found it really useful -I think because it made me feel that it wasn't my fault, that I couldn't have done anything differently and that it was just one of those things. It felt good just to talk about what happened and not feel like I was being judged, or that somewhat would say "well, never mind you've got your baby" which I had from so many people! It may not make everything better or answer all your questions but for me it was a real turning point. Lots of luck!!!

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

fel b sorry to hear this happened to you too.
how are you feeling now? what do you think you would do if you wanted another?

i hate the way people say oh well youve got your baby so suck it up.
if someone was in a train crash you would just say well your alive arnet you so stop moaning!

at least your consultant was nice mine was horrible.
when did you see your note ? how soon was it afetr your baby was born?

thankyou for your support.
love songbird

[FelB]

I feel much better now - but am nervous cos definitely want another one. Consultant said that I had healed fine and that I wouldn't need to have a CS. I think I could have one if I asked but would rather take my chances and hope it all works out better next time. Have heard lots of stories of people who had 3/4 deg tears but were ok second time around with 1/2 deg tears or none at all! So am hoping that I used up all my bad luck...

I saw my notes when DD was 4 1/2 months. I had to see the consultant for a "post trauma" check at 4 months and he suggested it then. Was just a random midwife but she listened to what I had to say and went through everything with me. Was in there for about 2 hours I think. At the end she offered me an appointment with a birth-related psychiatrist which i said yes to but once I got home I felt so much better so cancelled that. Since then, it is still hard sometimes but more like sadness when I think about it all rather than terror like it was before.

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

felb thanks for message
it was nice of your consultant to advise you to go through the notes.
did you discover anything you didnt know?
i have visions of them scribbling out loads of info.

its nice to chat to others that understand.

[FelB]

Yes, I have the same visions! They seemed to be writing down loads all the time. It said in my notes that I was pushing really well, which came as a nice surprise. I think I had got it into my head that I wasn't pushing properly and that's why I ended up with forceps / tearing. I just had this depressed feeling that it was all my fault and that if I had "tried harder" it would have been ok. Hearing that the MW thought I was going well made me stop blaming myself, which I think is why I started just to accept that sometimes things just don't go how you would want, and that blaming myself for it wasn't going to make it any better.

Hope everything goes well.

[ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree]

fel thanks
i am going to fill in the request form today.

thanks for the good wishes.

i will let you know how it goes

[SpecialOffer]

Sorry have not been around for a while...always mad in my life!!!

Well I have mw in a week for booking in, and think that I have come to a decision to ask if I can have a natural birth. I really do want to get a positive birth experience, and do not want to stay in hospital. I want to give birth, have the checks then come home to my dh and ds.

I now just have to explain to my family, who really want me to have a cs, as they are worried about me.

The reason I had such a bad tear (from what I have been told) is:

My ds was back to back, he then got stuck in the birth canal, cue lots of drs, mws rushing in panicing as there was meconium (sp). They strapped me in stirrups, and used a ventouse as there was no time for a cs. When my son finally came out, ventouse came off loads... he was face up, so the widest part of his head came out first.

So I don't think it was anything I did. But I am going to chat to my mw, as she is the same one I had a last time. I will update after next week..

Good luck in getting your notes ALovelySongbirdInaPearTree, I can remember reading over the consultants arm, that I had been pushing really hard, they was a strange relief, as I also thought that maybe they thought I was useless!!