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People don't like complexity

(28 Posts)
TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 09:29:42

It was all I could do not to dance around the room whooping with joy when I read Prof Michael Kramer's comments in the Times this morning. Prof Kramer, breastfeeding expert, he of the Cochrane Reviews, and (former) and oft-invoked darling of the NCT BF Brigade said that breastfeeding was only marginally more beneficial than bottle-feeding and that the claims for BF was oversold.

Thank you Prof Kramer for cutting through the obfuscation and the dense fog of hotly contested research. Thanks for vindicating all the mums (BF and non-BF) who dared challenge the sanctimonious breastfeeding orthodoxy in "discussion" forums.

The most telling statement in the article was that people don't like complexity. And of course, most people don't understand the mechanics of scientific research or indeed how to interpret conclusions that are often ambivalent

Looking forward to the backlash. Tick tock... tick tock...tick tock

Babieseverywhere Mon 20-Jul-09 09:33:10

Here is the link for people to read.

I'll be back to comment later, children calling

ilovemydogandmrobama Mon 20-Jul-09 09:34:18

hmm

Not a very nice post.

alittlebitshy Mon 20-Jul-09 09:36:34

niiiiice...hmm.

wastingmyeducationatHogwarts Mon 20-Jul-09 09:36:45

Yeah, there's another thread about this already. hmm

Babieseverywhere Mon 20-Jul-09 09:42:54

Link to other mumsnet thread here Off to read it now.

tiktok Mon 20-Jul-09 10:07:30

Read it again, JasMonster.

Kramer is indeed a major figure in bf research. He led the PROBIT study which showed breastfeeding promotion leads to fewer infections in babies. He also recognises that breastfeeding leads to fewer breast cancers.

What he does do, and which for some reason has you tempted to 'whoop with joy' hmm, is to say evidence for cause and effect with other conditions (childhood cancers, ovarian cancer, asthma and others) is weak. I would agree with him there, though last time I looked the diabetes research was stronger than he seems to think - I will look again. He also agrees with the research into cognitive deficit in ff babies, putting it at 3-4 IQ points (I have seen research varying from 3 to 9, I think).

I agree with you (and Kramer) - people tend not to like complexity. But most people can cope with the idea that breastfeeding is the physiologically normal way to feed infants and as such should be supported and enabled, and when this happens, the public health benefits are significant in the west as well as the developing world....none of which Kramer would disagree with, as far as I can tell.

I do hope I am not being sanctimonious

TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 10:26:57

My whooping for joy had more to do with the comments about overselling. I did read the article and agree with all the evidence promoting BF. I am a BF mum. I simply don't like the way the message is imparted and I feel for all those mothers who are made to feel somehow inadequate because they couldn't or, God forbid, would not BF.

Indeed, it is one these discussion forums where Kramer's name in respect of the Cochrane Reviews has been invoked on the last word on the benefits of BF. He says it is not...and who I am to disagree?

TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 10:27:50

My whooping for joy had more to do with the comments about overselling. I did read the article and agree with all the evidence promoting BF. I am a BF mum. I simply don't like the way the message is imparted and I feel for all those mothers who are made to feel somehow inadequate because they couldn't or, God forbid, would not BF.

Indeed, it is one these discussion forums where Kramer's name in respect of the Cochrane Reviews has been invoked on the last word on the benefits of BF. He says it is not...and who I am to disagree?

hercules1 Mon 20-Jul-09 10:30:55

You know if someone came on here with a similar post about bottlefeeding as the ops then people would use names such as "mafia", "Nazi" etc......

missfitt Mon 20-Jul-09 10:34:42

why oh why do you need to create a separate ID to have a go at tiktok.

grow a pair and use your usual one. tiktok is big enough to take you on. in fact, this thread should be reported for the gleeful goading but i would rather see it stand for future evidence of the unnecessary baiting of a poster who has always been impartial with her knowledge.

TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 10:44:11

Interesting that my post was interpreted as "having a go at Tiktok". The last lines of my post had nothing to do with Tiktok. I was merely using a literary device to convey the anticipated explosion of wrath. Seems that wasn't too out of line.

I am not sure what the import of your remarks were Hercules1 and Missfit. The discussion was about BF being oversold. Nothing more or less. Let's try and stay on topic, shall we?

hercules1 Mon 20-Jul-09 10:47:54

No, the point of your op was to gloat. As tiktok has already pointed out there doesnt seem to be a lot of reason for your gloating.

If someone started a thread to gloat about bottle feeders they'd be called all the names I've already stated.

Ah, just like you have said "brigade". hmm

TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 10:50:29

While I welcome the spirited discussion that often takes place on MN, I am peturbed that people have to resort to such undeserved venom. I was not "gloating". I was "celebrating". Small, but significant difference.

hercules1 Mon 20-Jul-09 10:52:16

"sanctimonious breastfeeding orthodoxy"

"looking forward to the backlash"

"bf brigade"

Whatever

LeninGrad Mon 20-Jul-09 10:52:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 10:53:07

Calm is a matter of perspective, methinks

LeninGrad Mon 20-Jul-09 10:54:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

missfitt Mon 20-Jul-09 10:55:04

then revert back to your usual posting name and declare that you have done so ~ all just in the name of fair play. smile

see ya later. it is a lovely day and i don't plan to waste it on the net.

TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 10:55:32

Inflammatory! Surely shome mishtake

TheJasMonster Mon 20-Jul-09 10:57:34

Have a lovely day, Missfitt. I am off to the park, meself.

LeninGrad Mon 20-Jul-09 10:57:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok Mon 20-Jul-09 11:06:13

(I can look after myself, peeps, but thanks for the concern!)

TheJasMonster - I don't understand your sentence "I... Kramer's name in respect of the Cochrane Reviews has been invoked on the last word on the benefits of BF. He says it is not...and who I am to disagree?" Do you mean 'Kramer himself says Cochrane is not the last word'....who would say here (on mumsnet) that Cochrane is the last word? Nothing can be! Cochrane is unequivocal - 'breastfeeding has health benefits, individual and public and here is the evidence. Governments and societies need to change to enable more women to breastfeed and this will be beneficial' (I paraphrase )

You talk as if he is retracting something - what?

You anticipated 'an explosion of wrath' - not mine, I hope, though I hope I can be forgiven for still being puzzled at why you were tempted to 'whoop' for joy, and your explanation that this was because of the 'overselling' comments doesn't remove my puzzlement! The 'whoop' implies triumphalism that your 'side' has somehow prevailed - bit pathetic and unnecessarily confrontational.

No one wants women who do not breastfeed for whatever reason to feel 'inadequate' - but the health effects of infant feeding remain, and the message should be clear and honest, while at the same time enabling women to breastfeed happily and confidently.

BCLass Mon 20-Jul-09 14:40:35

You know, if you had posted in AIBU, you would have got an 'off you fuck'.

We are too nice to do that here.

missfitt Mon 20-Jul-09 17:56:12

oh, I see the troll coward still has not reverted to usual posting name.

off to fill dd's bath.

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