Aaaargh! I don't know what to do, advice and sympathy needed!

[claireybee]

DS is 6 months and has been exclusively breastfed. We introduced solids last week and he has taken to it better than I had ever thought (dd didn't eat until she was 1). I initially introduced one meal but as soon as he realised what food was for he started shouting and crying if anyone was eating and he wasn't! He currently has breakfast and dinner as 'official' meals and then eats bits of whatever we are eating at lunch and through the day. He also breastfeeds probably about 8 times in the day and about the same again at night(shit that's a lot isn't it?!)

The problem we have is with sleep-basically we aren't getting any! We had a stage, I think around 3 months, where he was only waking twice a night. He then hit a growth spurt and had a bad cold all at the same time and it went downhill from there with him waking a minimum of 5 or 6 times. The current pattern is for him to wake at 10.30/11ish and 1.30/2ish, both times he takes a big feed then goes straight back to sleep(He also wakes at 8.30/9pm but doesn't usually need a feed then) However he will either then sleep til 4ish (on a good night) or wake after only 15 mins or so and will then fuss and feed for the rest of the night. I bring him into bed with me then and try to feed lying down so I can at least doze but often he will refuse to feed like this and will cry unless I sit up with him.

I deal with all the night wakings myself (also for dd who also wakes and demands milk most nights-luckily that is just a case of handing her the beaker and leaving her to it)but then I usually hand ds over to dh at 5.30/6ish so he can have him for an hour or so before he needs to get ready for work and I can rest. If I'm lucky dh will get ds to sleep in this time and I can sometimes stay in bed til 8/8.30.

The problem is that dh is beginning to get annoyed with being handed an unsettled baby early every morning (I can't not-by that time it is usually a case of hand him over or get annoyed with him cos I am so tired). I did buy some formula a short while ago, thinking I'd give him a bottle before bed as I did with dd but for some reason everytime I think of doing it I decide not to. DH wants me to at least try giving him the formula, his argument being that I can't complain of no sleep if I'm stubbornly not doing something which could help me get more. He also says that I've done the best by exclusively breastfeeding until 6 months, he understands that I want to continue breastfeeding but doesn't think one bottle a day will do any harm, especially now he is on solids too.

I'm not really sure why I don't want to give the formula, I think partly because if it works I will feel like I've failed because ds can't sleep on my milk! Worse case scenario I guess is if it makes no difference to his sleep but he then goes off boob (as dd did) and I'm having to make bottles several times a night instead!

Any thoughts/advice/similar stories? Am I being uneccesarily stubborn?

[claireybee]

Yes that's it MH, said much more concisely than I could have managed

With the sleep, he has never really slept well, it was a couple of weeks around the 3 month mark where he did but not since then and certainly not before!

I don't think DH will refuse to help me...but I know he is sick of it.

This morning he asked when I was going to give the formula and I said I didn't know if I would. He gave me a look and I said "Do you think we should try it" to which he replied "That's without question"...

[cazzybabs]

Clairy - what time does he go to bed? Evie is still up at 9-10 and then wakes once before sleeping till about 6.30 (when we get up to do the school run)

[claireybee]

Thanks, I'll do that.

He is pretty pro breastfeeding in general and has no problem with me continuing to breastfeed but he doesn't feel as strongly about it as I do! He also doesn't see anything "wrong" with formula...

He wakes to feed mostly-the early two are fine as it is a case of feed then back to sleep but after that he seems to need to be attached to a boob but fusses more than feeding. So more comfort than hunger at this time I suppose (another reason why formula wouldn't help). He does have a dummy which he has for daytime naps and to get to sleep at bedtime but won't take it when he wakes in the night

[lilyloo]

Clairey dd1 bf slept through from 6 weeks , ds bf didn't sleep until 3 and dd2 5 months is very much like your ds. We are yet to start solids but we are often up 4 times on a good night.
I am also getting the 'formula' questions from everyone but i have told them i will not be giving her formula end of as i don't believe it will make any difference.
I thin your dh is bing unreaonable if he get's a full nights sleep t complain of having to deal with an unsettled baby for an hour before work.

[claireybee]

Cazzy he normally goes to bed around 7.30, often wakes an hour later but goes back down then wakes to feed at 10.30/11

[claireybee]

My other feeing is that his tummy is still getting used to solids so it might be a while before they help rather than hinder his sleep...he is certainly quite windy during his unsettled time and usually poos soon after breakfast.

[cazzybabs]

would you try him later?

if solids are irrating him tummy i wouls be wary of formula - it may make it worse.

[ib]

I was just going to ask about that - sometimes when ds eats too much (he goes through phases of being fascinated by food) he gets slightly indigested and sleeps badly.

Also, could he be teething?

[claireybee]

The problem is that he starts getting grumpy around 6.15 so I would rather have him go to bed early than have him screaming through the evening because he is tired iyswim.

Also I have no problem with doing nightfeeds-it is just the frequency of them and the fact that from 4am (sometimes 2am) onwards I don't get any sleep because he is fussing. If I could have him wake at 11, 2 and 4 for example but without the fussing through the later part of the night I'd be very happy!

[claireybee]

Or even if he slept til 4 then started fussing-at least that way I'd have had a block of uninterrupted sleep!

[cazzybabs]

what happens if you leave him? Or offer him water in a beaker?

[claraquitetirednow]

Clairey - I have been very wary of giving a heavy evening feed as this did seem to be causing problems. So dd2's biggest feed is lunch. She has cereal in the morning and still usually just fruit - pear, apple, blueberries etc - at about 5pm. I have a feeling that anything larger after that was giving her tummy ache. As you know I have been feeding her solids for longer than you and she went through all sorts of phases. Now she sleeps ok (apart from I think the dreaded teething is starting again), although I am still scared to give her a proper evening meal!

As for formula, my experience is that it DID help both my dd's to sleep better. I realise I will get crucified from the bf'ing lobby for saying so but that is my experience. However, I don't think one bottle of formula in the evening will be the magic cure.

However if you want to try giving formula then do it - you could always do it for a week and go back to bf'ing if it doesn't make a difference. I am not in the "formula is evil" camp although totally understand why you want to continue breastfeeding. But don't make your life harder on principal. I was a bit like this about home-cooked food with dd1, but with dd2 realised pretty quick that something had to give so she does have the occasional bought puree.....

[BouncingTurtle]

Claireybee - you are not alone, my ds is like yours! He goes to bed at 7pm, wakes for a feed between 9.30-10.30, then between 12:30-1:30, then between 3:30-4:30. I really do struggle to try to get him to sleep again after this last feed. So far he is only having some baby cereal for breakfast and veggies for his tea, am trying different veggies on him. My mum is visiting so I am hoping she'll help me get him into some kind of meal routine.
I feel the same way about formula as well...

[Poohbah]

Ah but do we really know what it is in formula that makes them apparently sleep better????

I have ALOT of sympathy but if you are giving solids then I wouldn't imagine giving formula is going to make a jot of difference.

I have a VERY active toddler and he has never slept more than 6/7 hours at a stretch although will sleep 10-12 hours in a 24 hour period with naps aswell. I think some babies just are ready to go after 7 hoursof sleep.

[Poohbah]

That post didn't make sense. What I need to add is that my ds was exactly the same and what I did was get the old No Cry sleep solution out and start encouraging him to sleep a bit longer. With the NCSS by 8 months he was sleeping 6 hours and perhaps another 4 or 7 hours and another 3 and that has been his pattern ever since.

[skidaddle]

clairey - it seems like you don't want to give him formula and I don't think that would help. As others have said his sleeping pattern isn't that unusual for his age and I would say that the problem perhaps isn't your DS but your DH!! He gets a whole night of uninterrupted sleep and then complains at having to cut it short by an hour! Plus you are getting up for your DD as well!!

If your DH could have him (i.e. have responsibility for him) every night for a number of hours and then if your DS is hungry during that time he could either bring him to you OR if he is so keen HE could give him formula (if you were OK with it) - then you would be guaranteed a certain number of uninterrupted hours sleep every night...?

[claireybee]

MH not at all, I'm grateful for the support. I will try feeding him lying down during the day to see if that helps him do it at night-after all if I can doze while he feeds then life will be far easier!

Cazzy if I leave him/don't bf he starts screaming and as you will know from the pn thread once my ds starts screaming he doesn't stop! Also that then wakes dd up and I then have to deal with both of them.

IB/Clara I think I will introduce lunch soon then and then try a lighter evening meal to see if that helps. Otherwise I guess just time will help him get used to digesting food if that is the problem.

Lilyloo/Skid I see where you are coming from but to be fair to DH I think he only gets annoyed because he knows I need to hand ds over because I haven't had any sleep. He is concerned about my lack of sleep as well as his own.

Poohbah, dd was the same and formula didn't make any difference to her-I don't know why we are even thinking it might with ds! I think we just have nonsleeping children tbh. DD is 2 and still wakes once a night! What are the basics of NCSS? Really can't afford to buy any more books atm.

Caprica no ds has never fed to sleep-even in the night he feeds, comes off the breast then falls asleep rather than falling asleep at the breast.

[endymion]

At about this age when dd was little (though she was weaned pre-6 months as HVs weren't telling about the 6months thing and I didn't come on mumsnet ) I started to give her a bowl of warm porridge as her evening meal, made with expressed BM.
That seemed to help her. DS on the other hand (weaned at 6 months) used to get really quite agitated and so I just eased off on the evening meal. But he was a naturally better sleeper at that age. Always has been (didn't have colic as a young baby and so on).

[Poohbah]

It's a whole book full so I can't do it justice in one post.

Here are some things that I found useful.

Getting 2 longer naps during the day by any means you can, walking in buggy, feeding back to sleep if they wake after 45 mins. At least then you have a break in the day.

Putting the baby to sleep awake, rather than sucking to sleep by gently taking them off the boob when sleepy but not asleep.

Filling up on boob more in the day.

Introducing sleep associations like music or a toy for comfort.

Keeping a sleep diary to see what is eaxactly going on re: day naps and night time sleeping and food.

[claireybee]

Thanks Poohbah.

I think the other reason dh was getting annoyed was because I couldn't say why I didnt want to give the formula, talking it through on here has helped me realise a few reasons

For:
It might help ds sleep longer
I won't be the sole provider of milk

Against:
It probably won't make any difference to sleep
It might upset his tummy
It's money we don't need to spend
Formula milk poos are minging
Even though dh/someone else will be able to give that feed it will still be down to me to prepare it/wash the bottles etc
It could make ds go off breastfeeding and then I'll have to prepare bottles day and night...

Anyway ds slept much better last night and took most of his feeds lying down-the magic of mumsnet!