Help! My 4 day old baby won't suck!

[Mollyfloss]

Ailish was born on Wednesday (ventouse delivery) weighing 6lbs 11 oz and was breastfed exclusively although I didn't really know what I was doing. The midwife noticed that her lower lip wasn't latching on properly and we worked on that. Anyway, she lost more than 10% of her birthweight by Friday afternoon and paediatrician said she had to get a formula top up and stay in until she regained weight. We fed her every 3 hours, breast first which she took ok at times but not so well other times (it was really hard work for her), then gave her expressed colostrum (because she didn't seem to be getting enough herself from the breast) and topped up on formula. When giving her expressed colostrum & formula we used teets that are as close as possible to boobs - if that's possible. Her weight went back up and we were discharged yesterday but we still have to do top-ups until the midwife comes tomorrow at least. My milk is starting to come in today. Now when I give her the breast, she has a great latch but just lies there and won't suck and often gets sleepy so I am expressing the milky colostrum and then if necessary giving her top up (all with the special teets that we were given at the hospital). The problem is not top-up here. In fact as my milk is almost in I don't think we will need to give her anymore (didn't on the last feed). The problem is I have to express the breast milk all the time because she won't suck. I've tried stripping her down, tickling her toes, blowing on her face etc but she just latches on and then lies there and sometimes falls asleep. She is possibly lazy because she has had a bottle. How can I get her to suck?

[Peachy]

question- did you have pethidine?

if so, babies can take longer than you'd think to come out of it and lose the sleepiness- ds2 was much as you describe for the first few days.

striping etc is great- keep doing it. get a counsellor (abm, la leche or nct) in to watch a feed- they will know if it is nipple confusion from that, but ime that normally makes them fuss- babies differ though and my experience may well not be typical.

keep trying, and consider giving ebm or top up from a cup (bottle lid is perfect) instead of a bottle

[VictorianSqualor]

Not sure tbh molly.
Call the bf helplines, numbers are all on ym profile, I have noticed DS is being quite lazy sometimes and will suck for a minute then fall asleep so I wind him to wake him back up and get him feeding again if he ahsn't had much, maybe try that?
Apart from that I don't know.
When did she last feed?

[Peachy]

agree with vs that all babies do this-- Bas does, as a settling method rather than for a feed.

are you keeping a feeding diary? time / length / you feelings on feed? might help here, either to reassure, or to show to counsellor

[Peachy]

oh also- are you resting enough?

might be worth stripping both of you naked and either getting into bed, or a bath- often works wonders!

[Mollyfloss]

VS: Last feed was at 4.15 although it takes about an hour and a half to finisg, because I tried BF for a long time first, she didn't take to it, then I expressed which takes ages (milk is just coming in, i'm also looking for a hospital grade pump to quicken things up).L The I feed her the expressed milky colostrum. Thaht all took til aalmost 6pm and I have to start every 3 hours from the beginning of the last feed. If she would only suck!

Peachy: I didn't have any pethidine. I has gas and air, then a mild epidural just at the puishing stage and then a heavy spinal block for the placental removal.

[Mollyfloss]

I'm keeping a diary (my brain can't remember anything). Not getting tons of rest with this schedule though... will try the skin to skin... can't do a bath though as I don't think i'm supposed to as long as the cord bit is still there...

[Peachy]

you can keep stump out, had a bath with ds4 this morning (he's a bit stressed) and held him with his back immersed, head supported but stomach out. turned him from banshee to serene buddha in seconds!

[chipmonkey]

Molly, does she suck if given a bottle? My friend's ds was given formula for low blood sugar and refused to go back to the breast after that. Now, it didn't sound to me as if she got any help with it, (you know yourself, this is Ireland!) but I would feel that if you do give Ailish top ups it should be with a cup, so if she feels the need to suck, she has no choice but to suck on the breast.

[VictorianSqualor]

If it was me I'd go back to bed and skin-ti-skin her, have your baby moon, spend a couple of days in bed relaxed, and don't do anything except feed.
If she wants to just sit on the breast for hours and not suck, fine, but each time she does suck have it there for her.
All the faffing around with expressing and bottles is just going to make it harder for both of you.
Do you feel confident enough to do that though?
I can understand wanting to get food in her but tbh it sounds like it's all just a bit much.
Call the bf helplines, and keep your eye out for tiktok(mn bf guru!), I'm sure she'll post if/when she is around.

[tiktok]

Molly, hope things have turned a corner. Formula on day 2 sounds a bit interventionist to me, but I wasn't there!

3 hourly feeding is not normally enough, but good that you were helped to express colostrum.

Skin to skin, biological nurturing positions (google), bf ad lib....all essential. Don't call her 'lazy' - she's just a bit mixed up at the moment but this will pass with lots of opportunities to bf and colostrum/mature milk given to her to keep energies up.

Call any of the bf lines - it's good to talk to someone.

[tiktok]

Starlight - no to leaving her longer between feeds, sorry. She's already only feeding 3 hrly

[Mollyfloss]

The thing is that I have to feed her every 3 hours to get her weight up (so can't leave longer between feeds right now as it's very important to get her weight up or else we'll end up back in hospital). She does root and seem hungry but once I give her the breast she latches on and then just lies there or worse still goes for a sleep. When I express and then give it to her in a bottle she takes it no problem. I will try a cup. What kind of cup should I use. Why would she suck if given a cup rather than bottle?

[Mollyfloss]

Thanks tiktok. I'm expressing right now. Before even giving her the expressed milk I'll try to give her th breast as usual. If she won't take the breast how do you suggest I give her theexpressed milk - bottle or cup? does it make a difference?

[MissingMyHeels]

Molly, I was in a similar situation. Finally got my DD properly bfeeding after a long skin to skin session. Highly reccommend trying that.

[tiktok]

Oldie, if you have been advised to give it by bottle, don't change until you have checked with the midwife....there is nothing inherently wrong with giving by bottle as long as breastfeeding is being worked on as well. The idea expressed here is that a cup is 'better' as it does not interfere with the sucking but to be honest there is no real evidence for this - the bottle does tend to get more milk into the baby more efficiently and it would concern me that if you switch to a cup without professional guidance, your baby might end up taking in less...which may not be what is needed at the moment.

Cups are fine in some circumstances - each to be judged individually. You are seeing someone tomorrow - you can talk it over with her.

3 hrly feeding might not be enough, either...but check it out!

[VictorianSqualor]

Feed her at least every three hours, just keep her on the breast as long as you can comfortably manage, and wake her as often as poss.
I'm not sure about the cup thing, I think it's to help with nipple confusion, if the use a cup they aren't sucking a teat so wont get confused wth the nipple/teat sucking.
Please call someone molly. Now.
They know what they are talking about and can ease your mind, I agree with tiktok that the formula was a bit premature but as she said, we werent there.
Don't worry about her weight as such, but her feeding, if you can get her feeding well enough and her stools are yellow, urine is clear, she is alert when awake, plenty of dirty nappies etc then the weight is not a factor, it is only an indication of a problem when combined with other issues, which at the moment is her feeding, so concentrate on that ignore the actual stats of numbers.
(DS has lost over 10% of his birth weight too, he has gone from 10lb 3oz to 8lb 15(?))

[Klaw]

Am feckin blardy annoyed at the hospital!!

Did they have to undermine you by pushing formula? Why could they not have given you more help with expressing....?

I regularly ask mums to express on to a sterilised spoon to give to baby (I'm a new BF Peer Supporter at local hospital) and it always annoys me when mums are given no option but a bottle at night time, when a little bit of time and patience from mw would mean that some expressed milk was given to baby.

I'd suggest you get local physical help NOW from one of the national helplines

[popsycal]

tiktok has sais it all

skin to skin
feed 2 hourly - IM(non professional)O, 3 hours isnt enough for teeny weeny ones

and ring Bf helpline - they are fab

[chipmonkey]

also, Molly, you could try breast compression. I'll see if I can find a link........

[chipmonkey]

here Click on Second latch, Some Compression. It's basically squeezing the breast from bach to front to push extra milk into the baby. Dr Newman is fab, btw if you can get hold of his books. The video takes a few minutes to download.

[Mollyfloss]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Did skin to skin for the past half hour. She only did a few sucks in total but at least it's something. She gulped down the expressed breast milk as usual. that's the most important thing. I must chill out - don't want her picking up on my stress.
By the wya, the hospital did help me express so am not mad at them. Really only gave formula when she hardly got any breast - wasn't much there on Friday so I think it was necessary for her to get top up.

[Heated]

This could have been my first baby. Not interested in the breast, gulped expressed milk down. I didn't discover MN until after my 2nd child but from chatting to the bf experts on here I really should have got someone in to watch me breastfeed. Someone also suggested tongue-tie to me which I'd never heard of. Just wanted to wish you well with the bf.

Oh and I found I was expressing badly too! I had a manual pump (after not getting on too well with the hospital electric one) and was squeezing the pump loads and getting hand cramps, but someone explained on MN that you squeeze the pump a few times to get the milk flowing and then let go and it sort of gushes out - and it did, it took much less time than before .

[chipmonkey]

Yes, bear in mind that when a baby latches on at first, they do a really fast suck to stimulate let-down, then when the milk flows they suck more slowly. Some of the Medela pumps claim to mimic this pattern but I personally found the Avent pumps better, felt more in control of the rhythm.