Please can someone come and analyse DS' day? :(

[BreeVDKamp]

Sorry this is so long, I don't know what to do :(

DS is 8 weeks old and has developed this sort of stressed out despairing scream lately, which makes me v sad. Did it all day yesterday from about 11am.

Have put this in infant feeding as DS diagnosed with mild tongue tie last week and am wondering if anything could be improved by getting it snipped - better feeds = better sleeps? He does slide off, takes in air, clicks, milk pours out his nose, has shallow latch (lactation consultant showed me how to do deep latch but it doesn't last long), slow weight gain etc.

Trying to be very baby-led but it seems I can't recognise his sleep cues and he tends to be awake all afternoon. So yesterday tried to have him sleep 90 mins after waking up. We've got into the habit of walking or feeding to sleep so he can't seem to just be left to fall asleep. I know he's still tiny though! But he manages it fine at night

Yesterday was particularly bad, don't think we've had a day where he's cried this much before (still, could be worse!). That's just coincidence as of course I started logging his day before I knew the day would be bad.

Ideally would ultimately do the EASY sort of structure to the day but he falls asleep feeding so there's not much chance for the 'active'/playtime part of the day. So then I worry he's not getting enough stimulation.

Anyway here is the gist of it:

12:30am I pumped
1:15 fed
2:00 slept
4:45 fed left boob for 1 hr 15 mins [shocked]
6:00 fed I pumped left boob while feeding right (for 1hr 15 mins again!!)
7:15 slept
7:50 I pumped right boob
10:30 woke up (3 hour nap!!?? Unheard of!! :) )
10:35 fed
11:20 was screaming on boob so took him off :-/ milk coming out of nose initially but then seemed he couldn't get anything. So 11:20 = play time
11:40 slept in DH's arms
11:55 woke up, quiet time then played/rocked with DH
12:20 fed
12:50 slept (popped off boob by himself, sleeping, so decided to let him sleep)
12:53 I had to have some lunch so put him on sofa to sleep (watched by DH)
12:57 woke up, quiet time which turned into playtime with DH when it was clear he wasn't going to go back to sleep
1:30 fed fussing and screechy again so fed - should I not do that? Initially wouldn't latch then did but v waily, kicky and scratchy.
2:00 slept fell asleep feeding, I let him as I thought maybe he needed sleep more than food?? But then
2:05 fed woke up crying again, had trouble latching but eventually did. V lazy sleepy feed.
2:15 slept fell asleep feeding again
2:30 transferred him out of my arms so I could do stuff - we moved house 2 days ago
2:35 woke up, I remembered about the sling and put him in it hoping he'd go back to sleep
2:45 DS hated sling (should I have tried for longer? Sometimes he loves it) so put him on changing mat which he normally loves - screamed. Left him with DH to try and settle him as I'm certain he's v tired.
3:00 fed as DS was doing the absolutely beside himself, not breathing sort of screaming, again think he needs a sleep but BF is all that calms him
3:40 slept
3:45 woke up, eyes snapped open and that was that
3:50 fed other side, don't know why, don't even know what I'm doing by this point, have lost the plot
3:54 slept - popped off boob by himself and was dozing
4:05 woke up
4:15 went for walk to get DS to sleep
4:30 fell asleep
6:10 home and DS woke up
6:25 fed
7:20 he seemed to want to keep feeding but was just crying, scratching and not latching, so did bathtime - seemed happy enough
7:35 fed
7:45 formula top up
8:45 quiet time
9:35 slept
9:50 I pumped
(2am feed)

Hadn't had enough time to pump enough for his top up so had to have a formula top up (lactation consultant and HV said this is fine).

I don't want to have to hold or walk him to sleep but whenever I put him down drowsy he just wakes up.

My old Health Visitor just rang by coincidence and said she doesn't know what a slight tongue tie means and there would be nothing to cut, and if it's slight it won't affect his feeding, and maybe I should express for every feed.

Today feels like it will be even worse, he'll hardly latch at all so far :( His latch just seems to be getting worse and worse, milk running out his mouth and nose, I just don't know what I'm doing wrong :(

[tiktok]

Sounds like you need some decent real life support :(

Moving house in the middle of the first weeks of a new baby's life - AAARGH!

I will have a think, but my immediate reaction is to ask you if you might want to think your expectations are very high? EASY routine (from Baby Whisperer) is not breastfeeding friendly at all - the BW really did not understand how breastfeeding works, and how babies' needs work....it might work for some, but for others, it just sets up unrealistic targets which result in upset mothers and babies :(

Walking or feeding to sleep is NORMAL for a young baby - fighting this NORMAL behaviour is pointless and distressing when it doesn't work.

Yes, just feed him when he is crying or fussy and wakeful.

The milk running out of his mouth and nose - this happens occasionally with all babies, but it seems to be happening a lot with your baby. Has anyone observed this and checked if it is more than you might expect? Sometimes, milk comes out when a baby is feeding and crying and spluttering, but it sounds as if it could be connected with difficulty latching (as you suspect).

What has your baby's growth been like?

Hope today is a better day for you both :(

[tiktok]

Sorry - meant to ask? Is there any particular reason why you are expressing your milk?

[BreeVDKamp]

Thanks Tiktok, I hoped you would come to my rescue. I'm expressing because lactation consultant said to do a 4oz top up every night as DS has slow weight gain. He is 9lb11 and was born at 8lb10.

I've spoken to loads of HVs and they all have different advice, and LC had different advice again. I know he's too young for a routine but surely he should be sleeping more than he is??

[BreeVDKamp]

He is asleep on me now but scared to put him down as he will wake up.

[MediumOrchid]

I don't have much to add to Tiktok's good advice but one thing I read was that ' the crying peaks around 6-8 weeks', and this was certainly true for my two.

Also, there's nothing wrong with him feeding frequently throughout the day, it will be good for your supply which is good if your ds has a slow weight gain.

Don't worry about feeding to sleep, it's a great way to get babies to sleep . I think it's unrealistic to expect a tiny baby to go to sleep on its own, although some do of course.

Also nothing wrong at all with holding him while he sleeps. It's so lovely to hold a sleeping baby, make sure you have your phone and TV remote to hand and enjoy!

[BreeVDKamp]

Yeah. Is it a problem he only sleeps for a few minutes though? I'm sure he must be over-tired. I mean how am I meant to go out to baby groups and stuff, he'd either sleep or feed through them. I keep reading babies should nap for a solid hour or two in the morning and same in the afternoon?

So does it not sound like the tongue tie is a problem then? I thought if he got more substantial feeds/better transfer of milk then he would feed better and be happier. He used to feed for 10 mins each side but the last week each feed has taken about an hour, don't mind but I don't know the reason for it.

[BreeVDKamp]

Also I'm finding it really hard not being able to shower, go to the loo, make a drink etc, as I'm either feeding or holding him. We don't really play. I know it's normal but I don't understand how people do it? Especially if they have other kids to look after.

[BreeVDKamp]

I thought it was meant to get better after 6 weeks, but it's getting worse . Around 6 weeks he was a dream! He could be a lot lot worse though :)

[tiktok]

Sometimes he sleeps for a few minutes, sometimes it's half an hour, and sometimes it's a few hours, going on your record of yesterday, Bree. It sounds a busy day yesterday with your baby needing quite a lot of care and attention, but nothing terribly unusual in a baby of that age, honestly.

You are worrying a lot - you are worrying about his milk intake, about whether you have enough when expressing, about whether he has enough sleep/enough continuous sleep, about whether it's ok to feed/walk him to sleep, about putting him down awake/asleep, about whether he is playing enough, about your latch, about his weight, about whether you have time and opportunity to go to baby groups.....it all sounds exhausting and anxiety-making :( :(

It doesn't matter a jot if he falls asleep or feeds through your visits to baby groups (why are you worried about that? :) ) as that's what young babies tend to do. The benefit of baby groups at this stage is for the mother to have some adult company and chat and a change of scene. Perhaps this is something you could try? If you have a group locally, then go to it and see if you like it.

I do think the latch/milk running out of his mouth/possibly tongue tie needs looking at, but I do think there is a real case for lowering your expectations of what your baby 'should' be doing....there really are no 'shoulds' at 8 weeks :)

[MediumOrchid]

Does he mainly wake after you put him down? I would just let him sleep on you for now if that what he wants.

Don't worry about playing at this stage ,he's still so little. Slings are great for doing things around the house while holding a baby (not showering though, perhaps!). Again, don't worry about baby groups, they are great when your ds is 4 months ish and starting to play with toys etc. Before that they tend to just sleep through them!

With this small a baby don't worry about what they should or shouldn't be doing, mine never did the hour or two nap thing either . He'll probably settle into a bit of a routine when he's a bit older .

Have you got a La Leche League group near you? They are brilliant for advice on breastfeeding and general parenting advice, and a great social group as well .

[BreeVDKamp]

Ok thanks Tiktok :)

Generally day to day I do feel happy and like DS is an angel baby, although I know you would definitely not get that vibe from my MN posts!

I'm just worried about his feeding mainly, and so then I end up worrying about other things it may affect (sleep). Feeding has been hard from the beginning and there is so much different advice. DS is having his 8 week check on Friday so I'll ask about his tongue tie / latch then. And it's horrible seeing him get all stressed and frantic at the breast!

But ok I will relax :)

[BreeVDKamp]

Thanks Orchid, I will look up a local LLL group!

Also going to Amazon Prime a ring sling, DS isn't crazy about the wrap one I have and it's hard to feed in it. I don't think I'm suited to sitting around all day, I want to get stuff done so maybe that will help.

[MediumOrchid]

Great . All the best!

[themarigoldsmarigold]

One thing that happens with babies (as with everything else!) is that we're all inclined to give ourselves credit for the things that are going well for us, and conversely give other people blame for the things that are difficult for them. I think this is because we like to believe we have agency and some degree of control and are not just victims of circumstance. But babies are a bit like the weather and what we do doesn't always make any difference, any more than making offerings to the gods brings back spring!

So the person whose baby goes to sleep at roughly the same time every day and stays asleep for roughly the same time, at three months old, will be completely and utterly convinced that this can only be because of their decision to put them down at that moment, or to give them a bath the night before at a particular time, or to read a particular book, and be absolutely certain that if other people's babies aren't doing that then those people must be doing something wrong. They will then from then on happily tell people that their baby slept well because they 'didn't let him get into bad habits', even if what they did was much less relevant than their particular baby's make-up and personality. Beware of these people! They mean well but they are not always helpful and they are not really in a position to know that they have made a difference rather than just being lucky with the natural habits of their baby.

I think it helps when you meet mums with lots of kids who've had some who were perfect routine easy babies and some who were not. Understanding that makes it easier to trust that this is just what your baby is like. Then you can relax and focus only on the core issues of a reasonable amount of weight gain, wet and dirty nappies, and all that sort of thing. If those things are OK, then at this stage all bets are off as to what the rest of the day will look like! It can be intense and exhausting and not like most people (me certainly) imagined it would be.

Good luck with it and I hope the latch turns out to be fine (I'd probably want to get it checked out more too) and it does all settle down soon, but please don't worry that you're doing something wrong if your baby isn't in some kind of regular, predictable routine yet.

[PolShelby]

My DD (now 11.5 weeks) was diagnosed with 'slight' tongue tie at 3 weeks and once she was seen by a hospital Dr a couple days later it turned out she couldn't move her tongue side to side at all. This meant even though she was managing to feed and put on weight, she was having to work really hard to do so and in turn I was in agony at each feed! I would definitely recommend you have the tongue tie checked ASAP. It did take DD another 2-3 weeks after the snip for it to help but the Dr said that is because she was having to re-learn her feeding technique. Her feed times decreased from 45-60 mins down to 10-15 mins! Also she now takes in less air, resulting in less wind and she is more contented after feeding.

I've also heard about the crying peaking at 6-8 weeks and I'd agree too. DD is way more settled the last few weeks and only screams when she's overtired. She still won't let me put her down during her daytime naps though so I guess these things take a while

It sounds like you're doing a great job so don't worry OP! Hope your appointment goes well.

[LaceyLee]

I would just agree that your baby seems to be napping pretty well! I have a seven month old who has never ever napped for 2 hours in the morning and two in the pm. In fact often it's just cat naps of 30 mins. Have tried to improve this but I think all babies are different and not to get worked up about it. You won't have a routine with a bf baby imo. Unless baby naturally falls in to one which he might but just not yet. One other thing was that maybe swapping sides might be a good idea as you seem to be feeding one one side and if that's for an hour or more baby may find it easier if you swapped? Not an expert though so maybe ignore but that's what I did through cluster feeds.

[youarekiddingme]

When he's sleeping on you is he slightly raised at head? Then laid to sleep flat?

I'm wondering if the continual feeding and discomfort on sleeping could be indicating some reflux?

[PenguinPoser]

Oh you poor thing. My dds 'slight' tongue tie that was dismissed by midwife, health visitor and GP was actually preventing her tongue from elevating. The degree of severity does not match the degree of problems it causes. I honestly wouldn't rely on your GP or hv to know enough about it. La leche league sorted me out. Definitely recommend them.

In terms of expressing its a total pain in the bum - unless you really want to be doing it. Is baby following centile weight wise? my dd is small (11lb at 4 months) but gaining perfectly along her centile. When I stopped worrying about the numbers it was all much less stressful.

It gets better

[BreeVDKamp]

Thanks all. Will get on to LLL. New HV is coming round on Thurs and I'm going to see her for weighing tomorrow.

He's not following centiles, hence the top ups - was born at 75th, then 25th, then between 25th and 9th, then 9th. We'll see what tomorrow brings.

I have spent 8 weeks doing breast compressions and switch feeding, ha! Am convinced it's to do with his latch, even when he's having a bottle his lips fold in rather than flange out. So in the mornings when there's more milk he leaks everywhere, and in the afternoons he has to work so hard to get any milk so freaks out.

[PenguinPoser]

Sounds like latch yes. If you can find a LLL leader to observe a feed that might help. Good luck I know how soul destroying it can feel but you're doing great

[BreeVDKamp]

Update!

I thought I'd update just in case anyone is interested!

HVs sent me to a midwife clinic at the hospital to get DS' mouth looked at and we've just got back. So glad I went!

• He has an INCREDIBLY high palate, so the pressure in his mouth is all wrong and he has a really hard time sucking, so chomps instead. I have to have my nipple at a different angle than they teach it, and I have to sort of pinch his cheek and under-chin in order to help him build up the pressure and help him suck.
  

• he has a posterior tongue tie that needs snipping. They can only refer if the baby was born in Surrey, and as he was born in London we need to either go private (fine) or travel back to London for it. But that's ok!
  

• because of all this he has a tough time controlling the flow of milk, hence all his drowning and gasping.
  

Poor love!! They said we've done incredibly well to keep him gaining weight for 8 weeks with all this going on. No wonder he's a sleepy eater, all that effort! Bless his heart. Love him. Am kind of glad there is a 'problem' (and easily fixable fingers crossed!!) and I'm not just neurotic. Also glad that's not just the way breastfeeding is!! Hopefully it will get better. Yay!

[tiktok]

Sounds like you got some excellent help there :)