Anyone following the Alison Scott Wright plan?

[whenhenshaveteeth]

DS2 is 2 weeks and I'm keen to put him into some sort of routine to allow me to deal with DS1. So far I haven't bothered too much with routine, after all after 9 months in my tummy I know he's going to want lots of cuddles and that's fine but we've got to start at some point and from my experience, waiting too long isn't always helpful.

I completely buy in her theory, fill them up during the day so that they don't always ask for food at night - plus a couple of my friends have used this method very successfully. My problem is that DS2 is a real guzzler and just cannot wait 3h for the next feed - it's more like 2h or even 1h sometimes. That means that I'm struggling to follow the routine.

Has anyone experienced this? What do you reckon I should do? Feed him when he wants so that he gets plenty and hopefully can go longer at night?

I do wonder if the problem isn't his latch, I wonder if his technique isn't a bit inefficient which means he feeds often (sometimes the feeds last 45min to 1h).

He does manage to go from 8/9pm until 1/2am without waking up for food but that's after cluster feeding like mad from 5pm.

Any suggestions?

PS: I'm not interested in the opinion of people that think ASW is a witch.

[EauRouge]

Hmm. I don't think she is a witch but I don't think she is basing her methods on any kind of scientific data. It is normal for a breastfed baby to wake up. They don't always wake up because they are hungry so tanking them up during the day doesn't necessarily help.

Routines are meant to be helpful. If you are finding it more work to stick to the routine than not stick to it then maybe think about what it is exactly that you want and see if there's another way to achieve it.

If you want more time in the evenings, maybe a sling will help. If you want a more restful night, co-sleeping might help.

This is a really good website about sleep that is based on scientific evidence.

[whenwill]

Absolutely follow your baby. It is rare that they won't develop their own sort of routine by 6 ish weeks. It is extra hard with more than one dc. Can you get anyone to help you a bit in the early weeks?

I would say feeding them up in the day will mean they wont' need to 'feed' at night AS MUCH (but might want to comfort suck- which maintains/increases your supply to cope with growth spurts etc so will (hopefully!) be less frustrated at breast later).

If sleeping 5+ ish hours at night already then normal to feed more frequently than 3 hours when awake to make up for it and I would say for most small babies more than 3 hours is most normal anyway (I would say not guzzler at all). At 2 weeks old and if not waking up I would think there was something medically amiss and not good for developing your long term milk supply.

Again that feed duration is very normal, especially for the age. Feeding isn't just about food- expecially breastfeeding- it is baby's whole experiential world of learning to know, control and master their new environment, comfort, love, bonding, overcoming frustration, expectation, anticipation and fullfillment, patience, security, cause and effect etc etc.

[whenhenshaveteeth]

Thanks for the replies.

Let's be clear, I'm not expecting him to sleep through the night just yet, I'm just trying to put a routine in place.

Routines aren't for everyone but I NEED one (and IMO a happy mum is more conducive to a happy baby) - we don't have any family around so help isn't an option.

I followed GF with DS1 and it works very well, he was a contented baby that slept very well. I do admit that GF can be a bit inflexible though and I'm not sure how you can follow her routine with a 3yr old in tow - if anything ASW's routine is more flexible.

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing from people who have followed ASW's routine. Thanks x

[EauRouge]

Everyone has a routine, of sorts, some stricter than others. We always do bedtime in the same order at roughly the same time, we always have the same breakfast routine. Why not just make up your own routine that works for you? Everyone is different so there's no saying whether or not the routine in a book will work for your family.

[ZuleikaD]

I'd be inclined to do what works for you. Feed every two hours because he can't go for three, go with the cluster feeding in the evening, wear a sling so that you can still run around after your little boy.

Sorry, though, there's absolutely no evidence that feeding them more during the day results in better sleep at night. They digest breastmilk so effectively and their stomachs are so tiny that there's no such thing as 'full enough to sleep through.' It's a lie sold to gullible parents with nothing to support it.

[whenhenshaveteeth]

Oh God, I should have known that this was only red rag to a bull and that I would only get replies like these....

I only wanted to hear from people who'd followed the plan, was that too much to ask?? You don't see me hijack people's thread about co-sleeping with their 5 yr old. I think it's madness but it's more than likely that they don't want my opinion and quite frankly each to their own. I respect their choices and don't go bugging them but you couldn't resist, could you?

Never mind, I'll just muddle on my own.

[londonmackem]

I have no idea about this book but I put my dd in a 3 hour routine about that time. I also read gf with my first so this is a bit of her too. I just fed at 8pm as that is when i wanted him to go down. Fed whenever during the night then always fed at 8am and then tried to make her go 3 hours-sometimes it was only 21/2 but always kept feeding at 8 whatever. She goes down a bit earlier now at 6 months but I still feed every 3 hours. I have no sleep routine though, I have a sling, single pram and double buggy and she seems to not mind being abandoned on a mat at play groups!

[whenwill]

In general I think when people try to get help with things not going according to the plan of others' anecdotes/persuasive theories then others possibly assume they are not aware of the bf evidence base out there and other ways of looking at bf. Maybe that is what is going on here. You just said you didn't want people who thought she was a witch.

It seemed to come across to me that you thought 45 mins is a long feed for a 2 week old and under 3 hours is too short an interval. People just trying to help and not for you to go unanwsered. Their responses were about your issue so I don't see a hijack. Obviously not as many people on here have used this routine otherwise you would have had many more responses from them instead.

[steben]

Hi OP I uses her book but dd1 was bottle fed with expressed milk and formula so can't really help but just wanted to say good luck - I too am keen on routine and her book makes a lot if sense - just out of hosp with dd2 so will be picking it up soon. Is there any breast feeding support in your area which can help with your worries? I would be tempted to let him fill up as much as poss during the day but as I say I am no breast feeding expert. Good luck.

[EauRouge]

I'm not sure what you wanted to hear really- keep sticking with the routine even if it's not working and ignores normal BF behaviour?

I think your last post was a bit rude considering people had taken the time to offer suggestions and support.

[mumofrefluxers]

Hello
I use mumsnet all the time but this is my first post, as I couldnt help but smile. I used ASW techniques on my kids. But, the background is very important here and my reason for choosing her.

My son was suffering very badly from eczema, lack of sleep, arching, crying and the 'fake' feeding (45 minutes for an 1oz). I ended up in hospital with infected mastitis when he was 3 months and was on some strong medication so I moved over from breast feeding to the bottle. The next 3 months were hell. He was always unhappy, not able to settle for more than 45 mins and covered in patches of angry red eczema. My GP kept telling me nothing was wrong and that some babies dont sleep, some babies dont eat, until she started telling me I was wanting him to be ill as a side to my PND. I immediately started looking for a second opinion as both my hubby and I knew I was not depressed and that our son was unhappy.

I was so tired and desperate we contacted a night nanny agency. We were going to pay someone to come and help us for the weekend so we could get our heads straight. I stumbled accross ASW 'd details and called her. I was obviously very distraught at what had been happening at the GP's. ASW told me that it sounded like my son had silent reflux and possibly cows milk intolerance. And her advice was to go back to the doctors and see another GP and ask them to look at by son anew with these possibilities in mind. She didnt jump on my vulnerability or push sleep training or routine on me. She was certain that medical issues sounded like the cause.

The new doctor began treatment on my son and swapped his milk and 6 weeks later he was happy and healthy and still a pretty rubbish sleeper. ASW's book helped me no end. I am routine based anyway and with her help, we had my son sleeping 11 hours a night following her routine. She was completely open to being contacted once my son was better and I believe ready for sleep training. The areas in her book on gastro and medication were invaluable to my partner and I, we found her routine less rigid than gina's (which I have also read, and less emotionally heartbreaking that we found the baby whisperer to be.) He is almost 3 and no longer refluxing, but he does have a dairy and soy intolerance still. I'm hoping he'll grow out of it.

My baby girl is also a refluxer and dairy intolerant, and I still feed her in the night on her bad vomiting days, like when she has a cold. But she sleeps through when she is well. I always gave her the sleepy time message that ASW's promotes and she is happy and settled at 10 months. I feel very grateful to which ever angel helped me that day. And my husband and I both say, if it hadnt been for ASW and her book we would not now have a beautiful daughter.

I do want to add that this is my experience, and the reason I dont normally post is because sometimes people can be very harsh or judgemental of others on here and I dont want to be judged. Also, I do not work for her, nor am I related. And yes, I rave about her to my friends who are having sleep issues. Each person has to make their own path and this is simply mine. I hope whichever routine you choose to follow works as successfully for you as ASW's did for us. Take care all xxx

[ZuleikaD]

Big difference between 6m and 2 weeks.

[mumofrefluxers]

Sure. But I didnt think that was the point? The lady asked for people who had used ASW. I simply told my story.

[LemonBreeland]

I think you are trying to push him into a routine too early. If you leave it a few weeks you may find it easier to persuade him to go longer.

However it is not something I would dream of doing. Adults don't eat to a strict schedule so why should a baby.

[AnnaLiza]

You want to get a 2 week old into a routine and you wonder why it's not working? Really?
And by the way you were extremely rude to those who were genuinely trying to help.

[peggyblackett]

Wow, how rude OP

[tiktok]

OP - people give their time, experience and care on here. They don't get paid for it :) You are at liberty to reject what they say, but a polite acknowledgment is better than eye rolling dismissal - what a flipping cheek!

I might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb here....so here goes :) You were direct, and so will I be :)

If ASW's theory is that babies (of 2 weeks?!) should be filled up in the day in order to make them sleep longer at night, then she wants to read up on the normal physiological, emotional and cognitive development and the harm that can be done by ignoring it.

It is crazy to expect a 2 week old baby to slot into a 3 hrly feeding pattern, and crazy to wonder why he can't wait as long as that. He's not a 'guzzler' but a normal 2 week old. You are aware of the need for a new baby to need contact and connection with his prime carer (you :) )....but for some reason you think he's had enough of this by now (at 2 weeks, I repeat) and it's time to shape up :(

45 mins to an hour at the breast is totally normal for a new baby - not 'inefficient' at all.

I hope none of this has irritated you too much - do enjoy your baby, and leave the routines for a little while, if you can.

[sailorsgal]

I would listen to ticktok she is the expert on here.

I have the ASW book and some of the advice in there I just didn't agree with though there was some sensible advice too. (I did work as a maternity nurse). 2 weeks is far too early for a routine. By around 3 months you could have your lo in a good routine.

You said you haven't got any family around. Have you considered hiring some help?

[tiktok]

I don't know ASW's work very well - have only heard of her because of the occasional mention in the press and here on mumsnet, after which I have googled.

I would be very wary of anyone who is an independent practitioner without belonging to some sort of supervisory organisation. It is too easy for people to set themselves up as having 'the' answer, and when it appears to work for some, to believe their own hype. Without an organisation insisting on regular updating, regular supervision, able to deal with complaints and to insist on extra training or in some circumstances, de-registering ('striking off'), then there is a risk of at the least, a waste of money and time, and at the most, harm to mothers and babies.

I have no idea if ASW works with babies of just 2 weeks, or if she advocates deliberately unphysiological feeding regimes in order to achieve a better night's sleep/a routine....this may be just the OP's interpretation of it all.

ASW may also not advocate not feeding a baby more often than 3 hourly - this again may be the OP's take on it, and it's notable the OP is not sticking to 3 hrly, because her baby just can't wait that long every time.

But it's also notable the OP thinks this is a problem, and that she can change it. This is what 'experts' sometimes end up creating - a lack of confidence in the mother, so when she is responsive to her baby's needs, she ends up thinking it can't be right. They end up believing the 'expert' and not their own babies and their own responses to their babies :( :(

[Willsmum79]

I use her routine plan. But I admit I only used it after I stopped BF when my LO was 4 weeks old. Once FF he was in a routine almost straight away.
He's 10 months old now and sleeps 7pm until 7am (some nights he wakes briefly due to teething,too hot or scratched his eczema) with 3 hour nap during the day (in 2 bursts!)

I found she worked for us but cannot honestly give an opinion for BF. I gave up because I am OCD with routine and my DS wanted feeding every 10 minutes between 5pm and 4am!

[whenhenshaveteeth]

Thanks for the replies and testimonies, very helpful.

Btw, I'm not expecting him to sleep the night or be in a strict routine at 2 weeks. I'm just starting to put a routine in place (as I did with DS1 at the same age) and was wondering what people did with their kid can obviously not wait 3h. The book doesn't mention that so I was curious to know if you stuck to demand feeding until your kid got older and more able to stretch for longer periods.

I sorry my post came across as rude but I was a bit miffed to have been branded a "gullible parent"'. I wasnt asking about the merits of routines that's all.

[whenwill]

I didn't really want to come back on this thread but fwiw I have worked with babies and used gf successfully with few problems when ff but have only know of 2 mums to be successful with ebf gf. One just suited the baby and the second involved crying/screaming of small baby (and gina ford). Although gf does in her prose says she doesn't advocate in the early days
leaving a crying baby who needs to feed or sleep. Perhaps you were just lucky with your first.

[tiktok]

OK, OP, apology accepted :)

I note this from your post: "....was wondering what people did with their kid can obviously not wait 3h. The book doesn't mention that."

Now that rather serious gap in information would be enough to put me off any 'method' or 'expert' :)