How can I get a much deeper latch?

[moonstorm]

The pain from the thrush has nearly gone, but I realise we have another issue as well. My nipples are always wedge shaed after a feed and I think his tongue is rubbing on the nipple. I've Googled and Googled, but nothing I do gets his latch deeper. He has been checked for tongue-tie and cab stick his tongue right out,

We have tried biological nurturing, nipple sandwich, angling the nipple to the roof of his mouth, shoving him on hard when he opens wide,,, Things are better, but still really need improving.. we still have painful feedss ( different from thrush pain)

[thisisyesterday]

have you seen a BFC face to face?

i had similar issue with mine and we just needed to adjust our positioning slightly

that said, my nipples are always wedge shaped after a feed, so although that is used as a diagnostic tool it isn't always a problem iyswim?
have managed to feed 2 babies for over 16 months each despite it!

obv if you're in pain tho it needs to be looked at

[moonstorm]

Yes I have - she gave lots of suggestions, they helpedf a bit, but the problem is still there

[Bumperlicious]

Watching as I am having the same issues despite going to bfing group every week.

[thisisyesterday]

have you tried biological nurturing?

one of the problems i had with my 3rd was that i was trying too hard to get a deep latch. i was interfering and pushing too much in and we were ending up with a not great latch and bad positioning.

improved when i started letting him go to the breast himself. so sit with boob out, let it "hang" naturally. then just bring baby up towards the breast and let him latch on

make sure baby isn't too far round (towards armpit)- that's also what i was doing and he was pulling on the breast and slipping off

[moonstorm]

I've tried the lying back skin-to-skin, but he generally ends up frustraterd. To be honest, I keep switching between letting him latch on and doing the sandwich thing and aiming my nipple at the roof of his mouth - I can't decide whether one is better or not.

Sometimes he seems to get a really good latch, but the tugging/ sucking feeling is so strong it's almost painful - don't knmow whether that means it's also wrong...

[moonstorm]

And the thrush pain seems to be back. Can thrush keep flairing up, or could it really be so painful due to a latch issue???

[thisisyesterday]

yeah it can be painful due to latch and i think that a lot of bad latch problems are misdiagnosed with thrush.
if it was thrush you would expect to have itchy, red, sore nipples, poss shiny looking. a later symptom of it can be shooting pains in the breast, including between feeds.

it is however possible that a previous bout of thrush just wasn't properly got rid of and has come back again. how were you treated for it last time?

[moonstorm]

I'm still being treated for thrush: Fluconazole x2 a day, Daktarin cream for nipples (don't tende to put on when cluster feeding due to ds swallowing) ds has daktarin for his mouth x2 daily. Pus antibiotics to rule out strep infection - finish thses 7 days begore fluconazole. Plus I bought some probiotics.

For thinking it is thrush:

} vaginal thrush throughout pregnancy (kept recurring despite treatment)
} antibiotcs during delivery and 2 lots after
} pink shiny nipples
} Burning starts after feeding (but when cluster feeding, ends up being constant)

Makes me not sure:

} definite shallow latch (scabs, although these are still here, they got better after starting thrush treatment)
} some feeds are totally pain free, others agony
} latching on is almost always agony especially after a break

Sometime my nipples are really sensitive between feeds, other times not.

Don't know where to go from here - don't want to give up though.

[thisisyesterday]

hmmm, whereabouts are you? i seem to have ended up being friends with half the LLL leaders in the country so could maybe point you in the direction of a nice one? sometimes you just need another perspective on things

[belgo]

Agree with the others, you need to see a bfing expert.

I found that timing was the key to a good latch - latch the baby on just when they are starting to open their mouth; if you wait until the mouth is wide open, by the time you latch them on, their little mouths will be starting to close slightly.

[moonstorm]

Near Leeds. The lady I saw said the latch was definitely too shallow, but I can't seem to resolve it...

Belgo - that's interesting, I've been waiting for the wide open mouth to check it's wide enough. Maybe by then it's too late.

I need to get things sorted

[crikeybadger]

Sounds like you have tried lots of latch techniques moonstorm.

Have you tried the 'flipple'?

There's a discussion on the LLL forum over here

Hope this helps and doesn't just confuse the issue even further.

[moonstorm]

Thanks.

Can I just ask - does the chin start under the breast? As opposed to side on as when using the cross cradle hold?

Thanks for all your hel[p!!!

[RubyBuckleberry]

my lo was tt and i had to be strict and get a deep latch once the nasty crack had healed. the flipple was great, although i have heard a bfing counsellor say it is a terrible method. very confusing! it worked for us. it ensures the baby's chin is IN the breast, compressing it, and that there is lots of nipple on the other side. it also ensures there is a big gap between the baby's nose and the breast and the baby has their head tipped back so they can drink effectively, like when you are drinking from a coke can.
hth

[thisisyesterday]

hmm you're in luck.... this site has just been started up by a couple of friends of mine

it covers your area, so might be worth a ring?

[moonstorm]

Thank you - I'll have a look

[Bumperlicious]

Interesting. I've been doing that flipple a bit but was worried it was wrong.

Is that true about the mouth? I posted a thread earlier this week saying I though latching on was like those penny arcade
machines, just waiting for the right moment before her mouth closes again!

[StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou]

Sometimes you can improve the latch when the baby is already on by nudging the chin down with your thumb.

[gaelicsheep]

thisisyesterday - great site, especially the link to the discussion about the various titles found within b/f support.

[As an aside, you might want to mention to them that there are a few typos...]

[gaelicsheep]

To answer the OP, I believe I've tried everything with my DD to get her to latch more deeply, including "the flipple" (although I didn't realise that's what it's called!). Whatever I do, she pulls herself away and either comes off and relatches or just stays pulled away. Occasionally she will initiate a good deep latch and feeding is very comfortable. Most of the time she won't and it's mildly to moderately uncomfortable. She's 20 weeks now. If you find a solution, be sure to update this thread - please!

[Bumperlicious]

I'm with you on this Gaelic & yesterday dd caused a blister - ow!

[thisisyesterday]

will do gaelic! :-)

[crikeybadger]

Yes, I liked the milkmatters idea too and was interested to know that you can make a business by being a bfc without having to be a fully fledged lactation consultant.

I then spent the rest of my evening reading the Analytical Armadillo blog - fascinating!

[moonstorm]

Well I've noticed a pattern to the pain, don't know whether it'll male any defference, though.

5pm opnwards/ evening - pain free (breast is much softer) - start to emjoy and think it'll be ok

11pm through the night - breasts get more and more tender - if I have a longer sleep, they get very sensitive and hurt if anything brushes on them (even clothes)

morning - soreness progresses onto 'sandpaper feeds' - very uncomfortable.

afternoon - less sandpaper, more sore again

Don't know whether this can help me make a difference, but it's been the same for a few days now.

[Nads31]

Hi moonstorm, I know this thread was a long time ago but I am having the identical issue with my new born and I am in agony with every feed. I just wondered if the issue ever resolved for you, and if so what helped? Everyone keeps telling me it will get easier but my baby is over a month now and it feels like it's only getting worse.