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"Strivers vs Skivers" - what do you think?

(494 Posts)
KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 18-Jan-13 09:57:40

Hello all

Prompted by a blog post this week from MN Blogger Sonya Cisco, and this opinion piece by BlogFest panellist Zoe Williams, for our first blog-prompt of the New Year we thought we'd ask for your thoughts on the current debate around benefits cuts.

According to both Sonya and Zoe, politicians have deliberately encouraged us to think of people as either 'skivers' or 'strivers' in order to pit people on low incomes against one another -  and to divert attention from the fact that the economy simply can't provide enough jobs.  

Do you agree with them? And if not - why not?  Post your URLs here if you blog - or, if you haven't got a blog (why not? wink) do tell us what you think here on the thread.

expatinscotland Mon 28-Jan-13 20:41:58

Bravo, swallowed. Wag the dog, wag the dog, stupid people fall for it.

ssd Mon 28-Jan-13 18:48:07

hear hear

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 18:44:17

seriously - scroungers - being called scroungers by men who claim everything from their sky bill to their rent to their lunch on 'expense accounts' on top of their 60k basic salaries. that's a real 'sense of entitlement'.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 18:41:51

it does serve a purpose wannabe - it serves a propaganda purpose of not improving the lot of those who are complaining but offering them a sacrifical lamb to feel superior to/better off than. that is the only purpose sadly. winning the votes of people naive enough to think their problems are caused by disabled people and dole bludgers rather than people above them creaming multi million pound profits.

incidentally please do read this

the irony is sickening.

ssd Mon 28-Jan-13 17:30:02

...or have you got it in for me as I said you weren't special grin

ssd Mon 28-Jan-13 17:28:43

Xenia, can you point out where I said this please?

to quote you from Sun 27-Jan-13 17:56:27

" The aim was as ssd and others want to ensure there was no difference between rich and poor."

wannabedomesticgoddess Mon 28-Jan-13 16:42:12

But it wont be solved by cutting benefits xenia. Only by raising wages.

We do need housing. More affordable housing. Or tighter caps on rent.

Raise wages or lower living costs. But cutting benefits serves no purpose.

Xenia Mon 28-Jan-13 16:16:23

The Coalition has done some spending, taken IMF advice.

As for skivers and strivers it has been a hugely topical and popular issue as most of those who work hard seem pretty fed up with those who choose not to work and the fact that work often does not pay for people is a problem we have not yet solved.

Badvoc Mon 28-Jan-13 16:13:57

Yeah. Funny, that sad
Only 2 more years til another election.
Lib dems are finished as a political party now, so a choice between labour and Tory.
Wonder if Ed will still be at the helm? Or Dave for that matter...

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 16:09:29

badvoc because that would mean telling their pals their bankers to feck off and pay their own debts or pay back the govt for their bail out as a priority over bonuses. strangely enough the tory boys aren't up for that.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 16:08:23

we don't need new houses - we need industry in other areas so that we don't need to have empty houses all over the country whilst those in a small area have a shortage.

triple dip recession. not evidence enough?

seriously what is the reasoning behind us having shitter trains, roads, etc than other european countries? that investment causes bankruptcy? i'm not buying that.

Badvoc Mon 28-Jan-13 16:00:03

But the IMF have warned Osborne to cut down/slow the austerity measures Xenia?
He hasn't listen, obv, but he has been warned.
Why dont we adopt the approach of countries who have faired better in the aftermath of the global recession?

Xenia Mon 28-Jan-13 15:35:20

There was a good programme on about Spain recently - massive investment all over the shop and now near bankruptcy. There had been spend spend spend. Labour did a bit of that just before they came out of power but thankfully not quite as much.

We are doing some kind of state subsidy of new house building in the uK and there is this new train line thing. The Coalition have listened to the IMF in part.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 15:08:13

to be fair we invest in nothing. just look at the trains you have there. i'd catch a train from the suburbs to central paris and it would be double decker and god knows how many carriages long.

tomorrow i have a conference in london. when i get the train home you can bet there will be 4 carriages, single story obviously and packed to the rafters - literally standing with your face crammed in someone's armpit.

there is SO much we could create employment and industry for if we were willing to invest in infrastructure in this country.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 15:05:40

oh and those are the streets that used to also house factories - each of those factories have been turned into apartment buildings creating, obviously, even more refuse without storage space. people who live on those streets despite owning permits can literally end up parking 20minute walks away from their home. just trying to give you an idea of the density of living here. unlike paris we haven't invested in underground parking for every apartment building.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 15:03:43

there are residential streets in the town centre of my nearest middle england town that are literally overflowing with rubbish and have rat infestations. 2 and 3 bed terraces that used to accommodate familes now have no reception rooms and house 5 or 6 or more adults and yet still only have their rubbish collected fortnightly. no bins as there are no front gardens so just bin bags piled on the streets. there is honestly plenty of justification for increasing bin collection.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 14:58:00

wasn't a problem in the suburb my sister was living in last. we have areas with high density apartment living here - hell we have whole estates of high rises that wouldn't aspire to calling their accommodation 'apartments' but generate just as much rubbish.

the fact is they believe in giving people work and using that to provide services rather than paying long term unemployment or giving free labour to supermarkets.

Bonsoir Mon 28-Jan-13 14:54:59

swallowedAfly - there isn't a choice about the rubbish collection - there is nowhere to put our rubbish if it isn't collected daily. High density apartment living is cheaper in many ways but not on the rubbish collection front!

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 14:40:10

it's just more money for nothing - more middle men taking their cut

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 14:39:39

ok so if agency staff are paid more and the agency is taking an extra huge cut on top where is the loss being taken from? the quality of service or what?

wannabedomesticgoddess Mon 28-Jan-13 13:52:00

Also in many situations, agency staff are paid more than LA staff.

I am all for the government creating jobs. But not for the sake of it. It has to make sense.

wannabedomesticgoddess Mon 28-Jan-13 13:49:44

Problem was, jobs were created in unnecessary areas. Managers instead of frontline staff.

It would happen the same way again. In that situation a person gets a job for 10 years paid by gov versus benefits for maybe a year? Two years?

Its not cheaper long term.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 13:49:00

and bonsoir how does france afford to employ so many binmen and street sweepers etc? when my sister lived in paris their was a collection every single day.

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 13:48:17

especially if the alternative is to outsource the necessary work to a private company who siphon off profit and pay the employees too little for them to pay tax (and so little they need the govt to subsidise their wages in tax credits).

swallowedAfly Mon 28-Jan-13 13:47:03

again maybe i'm missing something but i'm thinking it's cheaper to employ someone, get necessary work done and get tax back from them than it is to just hand them benefits.

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