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My 5 Year old is "malicious, nasty and vindictive", says bf. Truble is I think I agree.

(64 Posts)
Oblomov Tue 15-Sep-09 16:32:25

My ds1 (5.7) has just gone into year one. This morning he said something to me that really shocked me. And saddened me. I was shocked by his thought processes - what had made the brain jump from one thought to another. Mentioned it to very good friend - she has a child in the same class. She and her dh were truely shocked.
We have had alot of bad behaviour over the last year. Not responding to rewards or punishments. I have posted about this before.

What do I do. Talk to the school. Take him to Dr ? I don't trust GP or HV. I don't want 'pyschological damaged' on his school records or anything.
Or maybe I am totally over-reacting. Is not unheard of wink
What do you think ?

Ds has had a lot of his nintendo ds this weekend. Totally ignored dh when he came home last night, because so engrossed.
Said to him this morning, no ds. just have a break, have it back tomorrow.
said he was really cross.
Then he said "right, I am going to be badly behaved from now on. Just to ruin your day. that will make you really sad"
"Nothing you can do can make me sad"

So, if this is not vindictive and nasty, then what is it ?
And can you be so nasty at aged 5.
This is clearly a child in control, non ? He is a bit too savvy for my liking.

What do I do ?

colditz Tue 15-Sep-09 16:36:17

Have a set time forthe Nintendo, take away that set time if he is rude to people.

FabBakerGirlIsBack Tue 15-Sep-09 16:38:33

I am probably wrong but I wonder if something else is wrong and this is how he expresses it?

My son was rude/naughty/can't quite remember in front of the HV when she was here and she said he was a very secure little boy. Not much help for you (it helps me) but don't assume he is in complete control of himself.

Bessie123 Tue 15-Sep-09 16:38:38

it sounds like your ds feels insecure. I don't know what you can do about it but I don't think it's fair to put characteristics like malicious nasty and vindictive onto a 5 year old child, he will only be reacting without thought to how he feels. You must be having a hard time - why don't you look for a child psychologist to help you deal with this?

CybilLiberty Tue 15-Sep-09 16:39:13

He sounds very intelligent actually.

I was told one that children don't act, they only 'react' so something is engendering this behaviour.

Is he anxious about school and you are getting the brunt of it?

My ds says things like that a lot too, and I know it's when I havent given him enough positve attention. it's hard whenn you feel you dont like them very much I know.

TheCrackFox Tue 15-Sep-09 16:39:38

I haven't read your back story. Sorry.

However, taking a DS off a 5 year old will be perceived as a punishment. No wonder he was pissed off with your DH. I think you need to have agree set times, in advance, when he can use it. Say half an hour after school, or whatever works for you all.

FWIW, I have 2 boys and 5 year old boys are a piece of work. I wouldn't go as far as to call them nasty or vindictive. However, if they see that they are pissing you off they tend to do it more. Keep calm and show no reaction even though inside you feel like throttling him.

Give him lots of positive attention when he is being good. Ignore, ignore, ignore when he is being vile. It is like dealing with toddler tantrums.

Good luck.

bumposaurus Tue 15-Sep-09 16:42:21

DS's 1 and 2 get horrible when they have had a lot of DS - seems it is like crack cocaine for them and they get revolting withdrawal symptoms when it is taken away. They used to say vile things to me when I said it was time to turn off so now we have set times, and only once a week, and their behaviour is miles better...in fact, they are really quite charming little chaps

CybilLiberty Tue 15-Sep-09 16:43:21

I give my ds 2 choices now rather tan getting cross with him.

'Either you can go upstairs and think about how you are talking to me or you can stay down here with us and be plesant'. He usually does some really embarrasses self conscious laughing but chooses to stay downstairs.

I also use the 'Because...' when he needs know consequences -'Because you called Daddy a stupid idiot you won't be having a story tonight. I used to shout 'RIGHT!!! NO STORY!!!'

randomtask Tue 15-Sep-09 16:43:49

It does sound like he's trying to be manipulative but TBH, I suspect most children try at some point (although I don't know if they'd do it to be nasty).

Personally, I'd ban Nintendo DS until he apologised or for a set time (but then I'm a believer that computer games are the devils work for children to develop socially/personally). I know you say that rewards/punishment don't work, but surely having a Nintendo DS and being allowed to be nasty is not right?

DSS is often worried if he has upset someone (but TBH, I suspect only as he doesn't like feeling bad) but he doesn't seem to realise other things are bad. For instance, he broke a wedding present less than a week after the wedding and didn't seem to think he should apologise or feel bad which truely shocked me. We've spent this last year trying to get a conscience into him but we use a jar which he puts pasta in if he's good and takes it out if he's bad (we tell him when to). If he does something that we expect (is polite, helpful, etc) he doesn't get anything but if he helps in the garden instead of playing he'll get a pasta. At the same time, if he is naughty/rude (shoving past without saying excuse me or walking away when you talk to him) we take one away. Don't know if it'll work, but it does for us.

Also I'd talk to him about how it makes you sad he'd want you feeling sad and also explain how disappointed you are.

Good luck!

GreensleevesLostHerName Tue 15-Sep-09 16:45:01

I don't believe any 5yo is malicious, nasty and vindictive

although they can certainly behave very badly and it is very upsetting when you are the bemused parent thinking "how the hell did this happen?"

I would be asking myself: has there been any great upheaval in his life? Is he happy at school? Does he have any undetected food intolerances? Is he sleeping well?

if nothing obvious presented itself I probably would talk to the doctor about an assessment

they will most certainly NOT write "psychologically damaged" on any child's school records!! You don't need to be scared of that - it's much more important to focus on getting to the root of his behaviour and addressing it. If he has some sort of special need, or something is bothering him, you need to know about it.

I don't think he is "a child in control" either. Sometimes little children can appear very savvy and cynical and calculating when they are saying things to upset or to provoke a reaction. But it's an illusion - he is just a little boy who doesn't know how to sort out his difficulties any other way

hmc Tue 15-Sep-09 16:45:38

"right, I am going to be badly behaved from now on. Just to ruin your day. that will make you really sad"
"Nothing you can do can make me sad"

- Nope, don't think that is at all vindictive and nasty from a 5 year old child. Defiant - yes, pushing the boundaries - yes, but not vindictive and nasty

NoahDear Tue 15-Sep-09 16:46:22

you react.
he knows oyu react
dont argue
tell
then repeat

CybilLiberty Tue 15-Sep-09 16:47:52

Nice of your bf to call your son that though

hmc Tue 15-Sep-09 16:48:14

My 5 year old told me he was going to "saw my head off with a big carving knife" when I took him to task over something! But I don't think he is a pyschopath...

Obviously I told him that I didn't want to hear him say such horrible things.....and he looked very contrite

hocuspontas Tue 15-Sep-09 16:48:31

I really can't think what other reaction you could expect if you suddenly take something away like that! As mentioned - he has been punished for not doing anything wrong. It's just a reaction. The words he used - he's obviously heard them from you in some form or other (or Tracey Beaker).

Oblomov Tue 15-Sep-09 16:50:41

So my friend was shocked. And I said I was too. Appreciated that he was upset. But was shocked that his first thought was to hurt me, as he had been hurt.
He was thus, thus I want to hurt mummy = ruin her day.

This is what my friend and I discussed. She thought this was nasty. Was shocked by it.

But are you all actually saying that I misread this/ have read too much into it.

PinkTulips Tue 15-Sep-09 16:51:44

But in his mind you were doing something to make him sad by taking away the DS without (to his mind) any good reason... so in fact he was only reciprocating by saying he was going to make you sad as well.

He clearly understands that being good makes you happy and being naughty makes you sad so i'm presuming you use that as a method of trying to make him behave 'Mommy is sad/happy when you do that'... he's simply taking a piece of factual information you've supplied him with and applying it to the situation; Mommy made me sad so i'm going to make mommy sad, mommy is sad when i do naughty things so i'll do naughty things to make mommy sad.

I don't think there was much unusual about it at all tbh, he's 5. He sounds quite bright actually, my dd would just have shrieked like a banshee and told me that she's not friends with me anymore and doesn't love me (another DS addict)

Oblomov Tue 15-Sep-09 16:52:29

Sorry, am also reading all your posts.
More positive praise. Set times.
Of course you speak sense.

CybilLiberty Tue 15-Sep-09 16:52:59

Try not to overanalyse. I'm sure you've got jumpers in your wardrobe older than 5. he's still very little.

TheCrackFox Tue 15-Sep-09 16:53:01

I think your friend sounds easily shocked TBH.

Did you honestly never say you hated your own mum? All children can say horrible things when angry or upset.

rolledhedgehog Tue 15-Sep-09 16:53:15

Is this a pattern of behaviour or one remark? Seems a bit harsh to sum up a 5 year old's personality on the basis of the incident described.

You angered him by telling him no DS when you allowed him to play it so much previously and he lashed out verbally. He needs to know the boundaries for when and how long he is allowed to play.

If my 6 year old senses an injustice he reacts...at the moment he calls me 'a nasty poo'. I am trying to make him understand that it is ok to be angry but not ok to act on it.

I can't be the only one who thinks that this is not that out of the ordinary at this age!

rolledhedgehog Tue 15-Sep-09 16:55:08

I type too slowly...I now see I am not the only one. Was beginning to think my DS must be a complete psychopath!

CybilLiberty Tue 15-Sep-09 16:56:32

I'd be more shocked at my friend discussing my child with her dh tbh. Her child must be perfect!

electra Tue 15-Sep-09 16:56:50

I completely agree with Greensleeves. You cannot assess anything a child of 5 says or does as some kind of personal failing of his character. Please don't make the mistake of doing that - it is very damaging to a child as my parents did this to me.

Oblomov Tue 15-Sep-09 17:03:19

Actually lots of your posts have made me feel a lot better.
Thank you. Glad I don't have vindictive/physcopath/whatever-whatever, on my hands.
Am trying to take on board some of your advice -other than pasta jars which I still think is reward based, and has never worked for us before - although thanks for the suggestion.
And he is good as gold at school. and eats and sleeps like a horse. so no trouble there.

In fact over dinner, he told me he "controls his behaviour at school, just it that I can't control it at home". shock

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