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Behaviour/development

The CC debate (part two!)

29 replies

neenztwinz · 22/12/2008 09:52

The old thread ran out of message space...

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Penthesileia · 22/12/2008 09:57

Hello again! Thanks once more for the last thread. Lots of experience to draw from.

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Maria2007 · 22/12/2008 09:59

Can't believe we ran out of message space

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blueshoes · 22/12/2008 10:26

Demand feeding, co-sleeping and bf-ing definitely go together. If a mother is alright with this combination and not totally sleep deprived by it, then I find this way easier and more natural than dummies, expressing, trying to boost supply and shoehorn baby into longer stretches between feeds and bigger feeds - something the baby will do in their own time anyway. Different strokes, eh?

The research out there is how you want to interpret it and believe, if that sort of thing is important to you.

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neenztwinz · 22/12/2008 12:30

I think a lot depends on how your baby is when it is born re what kind of feeder it is going to be. Mine always went a while between feeds and only ever fed for 10 mins-ish so that was the pattern we followed. If they'd demanded more often I would have fed them more often I suppose.

Especially with your first baby, cos you have to just go with it.

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Maria2007 · 23/12/2008 07:21

Hi again girls,

Blueshoes: what you say is exactly what I thought so far- i.e. co-sleeping, demand feeding & breastfeeding go together. In fact, that's what we did for 4 months, leading in our case (unfortunately) to horrible sleepless nights & days where our baby would go for hours & hours without feeding, making up in the night. I'm sure others find this acceptable or normal, but in our case the situation was getting unlivable. We weren't enjoying the co-sleeping, nor the breastfeeding, & were just obsessed with getting more sleep! Plus, we interpreted our problem as a 'dummmy' problem, when in fact with a few mild 'techniques' (yes, expressing & trying to boost supply in the day) we've already got our boy down to one feed per night, and I feel completely restored, & am enjoying time with my boy much much more. As I said, I realize that for many people things don't go this way; either (as Neenz says) babies go longer between feeds naturally, & take bigger amounts, or some babies regardless of demand feeding sleep well at night. Also, I realize some parents think it's fine to breastfeed all through the night. But yes, different strokes. I'm just explaining my experience because I think it may be useful for others who may be on the road to considering sleep training when in fact some very simple measures of structuring feeding/sleeping may resolve their problem!

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Maria2007 · 23/12/2008 07:24

I also realize that many people wouldn't accept expressing & giving EBM in top-up bottles. I know for a fact many people think those kind of practices harm breastfeeding. In my case (again, I think my experience may be useful to some) these practices have actually INCREASED my milk supply, in only a few short days. I'm sure the extra sleep is also doing no harm . Finally, I firmly believe that at 4-5 months using bottles as top-ups, just to make sure the baby is getting enough to eat during the day, is fine; I don't believe nipple confusion can happen at this point. So again, different strokes... I'm sure many would disagree, but it's working beautifully in our case, & incredibly, our boy seems more & more indifferent towards his dummy!!

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swanriver · 23/12/2008 10:07

Good for you Maria2007. Extra sleep makes a big difference to baby's happiness too.

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giantsantasacks · 23/12/2008 18:31


Maria and blueshoes - so its just a matter of faith then - the cosleeping/demand feeding/ approach is something that people embark on out of a belief that its best for the baby (and fair enough if thats what you think).

Then all the things that I would see as not as good for the family as a whole that can come from that are explained away as being natural. Therefore its not to be questioned even if you're dogtired and its not really working out because its optimal for the babies emotional development?

I wonder how many people would be as brave and openminded as Maria and change their views (or maybe not their views but their practice) when it doesnt turn out the way that they thought - and well done for doing that btw. I know a few people who have gone the other way.

we didnt express btw but we did top up with the milk in shells from the other breast when feeding if you see what I mean - wee collected it during the day and then fed it in the evening after the bedtime feed. Now we use it for porridge in the morning as well.
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neenztwinz · 23/12/2008 20:40

I always expressed before feeds in the mornings and gave ebm in the evenings and before bed and it worked for us. Maria, what you have done is basically Gina Ford - I think she talks a lot of sense. It would be very difficult to stick rigidly to her routine but you don;t have to - the theory is enough to give you enough hints and tip about how to look after your baby in the day in order to sleep more at night. I'm so glad things have improved so much!

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Anna8888 · 23/12/2008 20:45

FWIW, I think that if you are breastfeeding on demand and co-sleeping but also giving a dummy, then you just can't expect it all to come together. The dummy necessarily interferes with the whole "getting in tune" with your baby. So I wouldn't consider any experience/experiment of this type as telling one anything at all about how to successfully breastfeed on demand and co-sleep.

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DaddyJ · 25/12/2008 12:07

Ah, Christmas! And a new thread, very nice.

Just finished reading the rest of the previous thread
and was delighted to see Maria's update - I am so pleased
your son is back on track, what a wonderful Christmas present that must be!!

At the same Maria's lo has been a great case study for
when sleep training in general and CC in particular is NOT appropriate.

I do agree with the CC sceptics that there are still too many people
who suggest 'let him cry' too readily.
Controlled Crying is not some kind of sleep panacea but is recommended
in very specific circumstances:
If you are not happy that your child can only fall asleep using you
as a prop then CC can be way of teaching self-settling.
However, before embarking on sleep training you need to be confident
that everything else - health, feeding - is ok.

And, yes, it would help if you could tell the difference between
protest crying (that turns into settling crying) and terrified crying
(that turns into full-blown hysteria).

If you are a parent who is pressured to do CC use the above arguments
to get the knobs off your back, e.g. tell them that whenever you let lo cry
he completely wakes up and cries for hours instead of drifting off after a while..

That's not a lie btw. We observed that with our dd during the unsuccessful attempts at CC.

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Maria2007 · 25/12/2008 18:47

Hi everyone again, and merry christmas to all.

Just a little point: Anna, with respect I have to disagree with what you've written. I actually think what you're suggesting very problematic- i.e., if I understand correctly, that co-sleeping & breastfeeding have to exist in some kind of 'perfect, ideal' setting where things like dummies don't exist. Well, here's a little story. When my baby was newborn, and until he was 6 weeks, he would only- ONLY- settle to sleep with his mouth attached to my breasts. When I made a movement- any movement- he would wake up screaming. This led to me being absolutely exhausted (not unusual I suppose for new mums) but more importantly, it led to my boy being irritable with all this completely fragmented sleep. This boob-in-mouth / mummy-moving / DS & mummy waking up situation went on & on for hours each evening, & for every nap time. Apart from the fact that I could do nothing else whenever DS was trying to sleep, I could literally not move in my bed, & however much I asked for advice, I never could find any advice that could help in our situation. One evening I said ok, that's it, & we gave the dummy, which initially was a liberation. I guess what I'm saying Anna is that there's no such thing as perfect 'getting in tune' with your baby, however perfect intentions we all have, because there will necessarily be times when mummy & baby's needs will be different. And by the way, in our situation I don't even think my baby's needs were served by me acting as human dummy, he was- clearly to me- very irritated by this constant effort to keep the boob in his mouth.

We still co-sleep (late at night) with your boy, and it's easier now that he's sleeping noticeably better... I also still breastfeed, although I do give some top-ups in bottles, including formula milk once in a while. I'm proud & happy that I've managed to breastfeed this long (DS is almost 5 months) but it hasn't been a picnic (no-one said it would be) & I'm not one of those people who will do anything- even if it means complete lack of sleep- to persevere with exclusive breastfeeding at all costs. Maybe that makes me a worse mother, I don't know, but I'm just trying to describe the real-life situations people get themselves into. I'm not aiming for any kind of 'pure', 'all-natural' brand of parenting, which 'doesn't interfere with the process of co-sleeping & breastfeeding' at the cost of my mental health, my parent's mental health & ultimately our boy's mental health (because what good are 2 parents who can't see straight from lack of sleep). I'm glad we've avoided going down the sleep-training route (and yes, DaddyJ, I agree that sleep-training has to be for sleep association issues only)... and I'm glad we're managing to gradually resolve our sleeping/feeding issues, even if it is in a way that's not ideal for breastfeeding (perhaps). What's most important for me is that we stop feeling depressed, exhausted, and demoralized...and I'm hopeful that we're on our way to better days & nights. And hopefully our boy is too. Anyway. Merry christmas again to everyone...

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DaddyJ · 27/12/2008 09:19

On the subject of recognising different cries
I do remember when dd was very little (< 3 months)
all her cries somehow sounded the same - "come to me NOOOWWWW!!!"

Sometime between month 3 and 4 her communication became
more differentiated and she also found her own sleep/feeding rhythm.
That's when it became possible to tell what she was trying to say
and thus sleep training became an option.

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DaddyJ · 27/12/2008 09:24

And there was one more point to address from the previous thread:

Sakura, I didn't mean to anger you but both the evolutionary and
the anthropological angles are red herrings in the CC debate.

It's interesting to find out how our ancestors did things or
how the Japanese bring up their children, wonderful stuff and certainly quite useful,
but that's about it. It has no further relevance.

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Maria2007 · 27/12/2008 14:47

I agree with Daddy J. I really don't see how something that was done by 'cave men' is relevant to today's modern world, with all its complexities & particularities.

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neenztwinz · 03/01/2009 04:09

DaddyJ, you say CC should only be used in specific circs - what are these?

I am using CC at the mo to get my twins to sleep through the night without BFs. After five nights away from home over Christmas and NY I spent most nights with them in bed with me and/or attached to my breasts to try to shut them up/get them back to sleep without disturbing everyone else in the house! It got to a stage where they were feeding five or six times in the night between them (and then not demanding many BFs in the daytime). This has been going on for about four weeks - the waking in the night and feeding back to sleep has got gradually worse since they got a cold a few weeks ago. They are eight months old.

So now we are back home and they are well again I am trying to get them back on track. The first night they went down at 7pm and cried (cos they had got used to sleeping with me/being picked up when they cried). I fed them both once more to try to settle them but to no avail. They eventually fell asleep at 9pm. Then DT2 woke at 12.45, I offered her water but she was not impressed, then she cried for 45 mins before falling back to sleep until morning. DT1 woke once, for about three mins, and went back to sleep till morning! Last night they went down fine at 7pm (10 mins crying from DT2) then DT2 woke at 1.15am and cried for 25 mins and has been asleep since (I have not, hence being on MN at this hour!). DT1 has not woken!

I expect in a couple of days they won't be waking at all, or will be re-settling themselves quickly. I got the feeling that cos I have used CC on them before, they are familiar with what is happening and are responding to it quickly and with little fuss. I expected hours of crying from both of them but it has been really easy. I have two SILs with babies who wake in the night and they are opposed to CC, but I really cannot agree that they are doing something better for their kids that I am doing for mine. Perhaps my success with CC and the fact it hasn't been too traumatic this time is because the twins have pretty much always settled themselves to sleep so are much better at going to sleep on their own. Using CC 'cold' when a baby has always been cuddled to sleep and never left to cry is probably much worse!

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foxytocin · 03/01/2009 04:46

" both the evolutionary and
the anthropological angles are red herrings in the CC debate."

why?

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brightongirldownunder · 03/01/2009 05:26

Yes, why daddyj? Please explain....

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neenztwinz · 08/01/2009 23:01

DaddyJ, are you out there?

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DaddyJ · 09/01/2009 00:16

Oh, you resurrected this!
Will come back to it at the weekend!

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DaddyJ · 09/01/2009 21:09

neentz, one of the problems with CC is that people
can become evangelical about it and suggest it as a panacea
in any kind of situation where another parent is unhappy with
her child's sleep patterns.

That's not very wise and old Ferber ('inventor' of CC)
has tried hard to explain that it really is only recommended
where you have a classic sleep association and all other factors
have been dealt with.

I agree with your thoughts on your twins' sleeping habits.
Glad things are back on track!

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DaddyJ · 09/01/2009 21:11

I am very curious how other cultures or our ancestors do/did things
not just with regard to parenting.

However, I would never argue that we ought to do something
just because some other culture does it.
Nor the opposite:
'CC is a bad thing because, say, the Japanese (allegedly) don't do it.'
That in itself does not mean anything.

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biskybat · 09/01/2009 22:04

I have a 15 month old dd. She has always been a bad sleeper. Many people told me to try CC when she was younger. I did, it didn't work! I have tried it a few times and have come to the conclusion that CC doesn't work if you have a child like mine who is a light sleeper and wakes in the night but cannot self soothe to sleep again. She refuses a dummy and is breastfed.

This is/was roughly her pattern...We put her down to sleep at 7 and she sleeps well. She always wakes up when we come up to bed at about 11ish, I then feed her back to sleep and she will wake up 1-2 times at approx 3 and 5 or just at 4am before waking permanently at 7am.

Usually I just feed her for 5 mins and she drops back to sleep very quickly or sometimes I just put her back in her cot and stroke her for a few mins and she dozes off. However whenever I have tried CC (ie leaving to cry and going in every few mins to resettle and then leave again) She does eventually go to sleep after about 10-15 mins of crying however because she is so upset she ends up waking every hour through the night as a result, I think it may have something to do with the way she is falling asleep ie exhausted/unhappy/distressed which makes her sleep even lighter and therefore she wakes even more frequently than normal. BTW 10-15 mins crying doesn't sound very long but on the occasions (3 nights total each time) I've tried it, it feels like a lifetime.

Personally I think that her problem is one that CC cannot solve...she is a light sleeper and not a self soother. I am sorry I listened to my relatives who told me that it was the solution because all it did was distress me and her.

It does annoy me that some people think CC is a quick fix. It may work for some but all babies are different. If the goal of CC is to make a baby sleep through, it has the opposite effect on mine.

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skyblue07 · 10/01/2009 00:38

hello am new here . we are try cc i think it depends on wat mood the baby is in . i found that sometime it works. 2night it not working i feel really bad. i left baby 4 20min and she cry till i got her pick up. am hoping she sleep soon as we have been at work alnight

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tittybangbang · 10/01/2009 09:06

Has anyone seen this article before? I think it's really interesting.

"Mothers as Managers" by Penelope Leach

The phrase ?controlled crying? epitomises an increasingly popular approach to parents? (especially mothers?) management of their infants. The approach owes much to the concept of ?sleep training? first formulated by Ferber1 a generation ago. If parents are asked to pinpoint the very worst part of raising a baby through the first year, more of them pick lack of sleep than anything else. The delayed-response method, which is often referred to among parents as "Ferberizing" aims to train babies from four to six months of age to go to sleep without adult soothing and to go through the night without attention.
Ferber?s approach has always been counterbalanced by authorities, such as Sears2, who argue for ?attachment parenting? with attention available to infants by night as well as by day, and, often, for co-sleeping or ?family beds?. When parents experience ?sleeping problems? extreme versions of each of these opposite approaches attract some as passionate advocates. (See Appendix 1 ?Approaches to infant sleep?)
Now, though, Ferberesque arguments and techniques are being generalised from problem solving to ordinary practice and from the middle of an infant?s first year to the whole of it. This of course means that they are being generalised from sleeping patterns to all behaviours. In the newborn period ?there is no such thing as a baby? (as Winnicott told us) and there is no such thing as a ?sleeping problem? either ? at least not one that belongs to the infant. Sleep and wakefulness, feeding and other physical functions, play and neuro-muscular and brain development are all interlinked and moderated by the relationship between infant and mothering person.
So instead of being part of a temporary approach to entrenched sleeping difficulties, ?controlled crying? is being presented as central to an overall strategy for mothers? avoidance and/or management of all the difficulties and conflicts that may arise in caring for babies. The phrase ?controlled crying? has slipped into child care advice, both in print and on the Net, and with it the notion that mothers can control every aspect of their babies? lives and should strive to do so as both they themselves and the infants will be happier if they do. Astonishingly detailed and prescriptive plans for the exercise of such maternal control, manipulation and management are reaching a wide public. A typical example of the routine advised for a baby of three to four months usually starts like this:
7.00am Baby should be awake, fed and nappy changed
7.30am Wash and dress baby
9.00am Settle baby to sleep for no longer than 45 minutes, loosely wrapped and in the dark with the door shut
These routines are prescriptive. Parent?s queries about how to ensure that the baby?s longest sleep period is by night rather than in the day often includes instructions not to talk or make eye contact with the baby after the last feed at 10pm until the next feed at 7am. Advice also often includes total blackout on all windows and limiting protein foods, vegetables and fruit after lunchtime so as to lessen the likelihood of an early morning bowel movement, as well as ?controlled crying? for those who wake all the same.
Why do many mothers, including older and better-educated women, welcome this Truby King-like advice?
Successive surveys, culminating in the recently reported results of the Lever Faberge Family Report 2003 3, suggest that as well as finding the transition to motherhood demanding and difficult, many women are finding the ongoing actuality of mothering disappointing. There are increasing numbers of women deciding not to have children and increasing numbers striving to overcome involuntary childlessness, but among those who do have a child or children there are increasing numbers who are ready to acknowledge that being a mother has unexpectedly distressing and lasting effects on previous adult-only lifestyles and careers.
In this social context any set of strategies that empowers women to control infants? behaviour and limit their demands will be attractive to many, especially if they are convinced that the system is good for their babies: that using it makes them better mothers. The message ?You are in charge; you know best what is good for your baby? may be especially appealing to those women who are least sure that they know anything about babies, and least able to allow themselves to be guided by what they feel. Authoritarianism is especially attractive to people who are at their most vulnerable. Many new mothers, bombarded with differing explanations and advice about babies have been heard to say ?I wish someone would just tell me what to do?. These instruction books do just that and their appeal is increased by the offered level of daily ? hourly - detail.
Once a woman has decided to adopt such a scheme, no judgment or decisions are required. Following each day?s routine is mindless, (though far from effortless) and assures her of the rightness of doing things she might otherwise have been uncertain about and had to work out for herself. The idea of closing the door on a baby and leaving him to cry, for example, can be both tempting and shameful. Good enough mothers can be tempted and may or may not find themselves ashamed. But if leaving the baby is part of ?settling him? in a prescribed way at a scheduled time in a day whose every moment is programmed to do what is right for him, a woman can feel like a good mother even whilst he cries, ignoring rather than hearing him. Constantly assuring mothers that this (and only this) is the right way to manage a baby (?follow my routines...?), such a programme insulates mothers from feeling neglectful or guilty and from finding their own ways.
Among many swings and fashions in childcare advice, why is this one important enough to merit a response from infant mental health professionals?
It is not so much the content of these very specific recommendations that uniquely merit a professional response, more their implications for the relationships between mothers and babies. Routines, even very detailed ones like those exemplified in Appendix Two, are not in themselves bad for babies. Most infants flourish with at least some predictability in their daily lives and if more makes a mother feel better able to cope, her baby may also benefit, as long as routines are not so rigid that his daily experiences are always the same and he has no chance to learn about the difference between sleeping with the door open or closed, or eating less or more than usual for lunch.
Controlled crying is not necessarily undesirable either, although the name has unpleasant connotations. Indeed leaving a baby to grumble in her cot for a few minutes when she is known to be tired and is clearly fighting sleep may be the very best way to help her let go and drop off. Even ?leaving a baby to cry? is not always as harsh as it sounds. Holding back from the early-waker instead of hurrying to him at the first murmur, for example, may actually increase his sense of security (as well as his ability to stay awake for a pleasant morning) by showing him that his parents are confident that he can manage on his own for a little while and that it is safe for him to do so. But there is a crucial difference between these examples of normally sensitive parenting and the alternative, highly routinised and externalised style of infant care. While the former is based on parents knowing their baby, noticing and striving to understand his or her cues, often putting themselves in those non-existent shoes and bearing the baby and the baby?s feelings in mind even when they refuse to meet his or her immediate demands, the latter is based on parents ?knowing best?.
Any increase in the popularity of rigid, instruction-manual child care is unwelcome to infant mental health professionals because it runs counter to the vast international literature concerning the unarguable importance of secure attachment; to the rapidly growing associated body of research demonstrating the importance of maternal sensitivity and responsivity, and to findings currently emerging from the fast-moving field of research into infant brain development. The security of an infant?s attachment to mother and the sensitivity of her care go together. Stress, including the stresses that lead to insecure attachment, damages an infant?s capacity to learn and may, in extreme instances, damage it forever. Whatever specific infant outcomes are studied ? from language development to resilience to sociable play ? the sensitivity and responsivity of their mothers explains more of the variance in most studies than any other variable.
Nobody can be sensitive to another person all the time; nobody can always be responsive. But the more responsive, loving experience a baby gets the more he will flourish today and the more resources he will have to cope with difficulties tomorrow. It is through this first love relationship that babies learn about themselves, other people and the world; experience emotions and learn to recognise and cope with them. And it is through this baby-love that they become capable of more grown-up kinds; capable, one far-distant day, of giving children of their own what they now need for themselves. As Alison Gopnik 4 puts it ?... for babies and young children care and teaching are inseparable. The very same actions that nurture babies give them the kinds of information they need... The scientific research says that we should do just what we do when we are with our babies ? talk, play, make funny faces, and pay attention.? Paying attention means a mother thinking with and for and through her baby, as well as about her cooling supper or beckoning bed; thinking about him and herself and how the two of them can turn the next challenge into pleasure, rather than about a set of instructions or the time.
Bearing a baby in mind in this way is not at all the same as total indulgence. Indeed parents who are having problems with babies past the newborn stage demanding to be fed every hour or to be held constantly, often need to be firmer without being less loving. However most of the parents who are adopting these external-control methods are not doing so to deal with real problems in the here-and-now but with feared problems in a fraught future. Anxious lest babies take over their lives and control them, they gladly adopt programmes that allow them to manage and control the babies? lives. Sadly they may thereby delay, even perhaps distort, the relationship of mutual regard that enjoyable parenting relies on now and forever.
Newborn babies have a built-in drive to develop and practise every aspect of being human, yet each aspect of their growing up depends on their partnership with adults. If a parent holds herself aloof from her baby as a person, and from revelling in the physical pleasure in each other?s bodies, and in nursing at the breast or bottle, that underpins their adjustment to each other, seeing him instead as a programme and a project, she will not do all she can to keep him happy and busy and communicating with her. And of course the less busy and happy the baby is and the less he ?talk? to her, the less of a pleasure he will be.
The instruction manual approach gives parents a sense of adult control and separateness and supports their use of authority over the baby when what they most need is personal support while they risk submerging themselves in a relationship with him. It is misleading to parents to suggest that by rationing and routinising their attention to the baby they can conserve their adult autonomy because, however much they may resent the fact, their happiness and the baby?s are inextricably entangled. A mother may resent her baby?s crying; resent, even reject, the fact that he needs her - again. But ignoring (?controlling?) the crying does not only condemn the baby to cry unanswered but also condemns the mother to listen to him crying. So being sensitive to a baby?s needs, tuning in to him, treating him as he seems to ask to be treated, is not only better for the baby but also better for the mother and for their relationship. Being responsive to a baby soon grows into mutual responsiveness between child and parent.
Infants are not out to ?get at? parents. Watching and listening to babies and responding positively to them whenever possible does not turn babies into bullies or parents into victims. On the contrary, it leads, naturally and without prior planning or particular rules, to negotiation between adults and infants and thence to the reciprocity on which all intimate relationships eventually depend. It is by negotiation (rather than by rules) that a parent arrives at the appropriate period of grace between this particular baby waking up and an adult arriving at the cot side. It is by negotiation that a mother can gradually stretch the time between feeds, or persuade her baby to accept her face and voice for reassurance when something startles him, instead of instant breast. It is through months of these reiterated mini-negotiations that a baby learns that mother is not him but someone separate. Someone who thinks about his needs and can be trusted, but who also has needs of her own. These lessons are the foundations of mutual regard. Laid in the first six months, they will support the mother-child relationship not only through infancy and as an alternative to rigidly programmed parental control, but through the toddler?s confused and confusing developmental drive for autonomy and the child?s increasing passion for peers, and into adolescence. And by then mutual regard is the only hope because power-tactics no longer work at all.
Penelope Leach PhD
Hon. Senior Research Fellow
Tavistock Clinic, London NW3 5BA
References

  1. Ferber, R. ( 1985) Solve Your Child?s Sleep Problems. London. Dorling Kindersley
  2. Sears, W. Sears, M. (2003) The Baby Book . Little Brown & Company
  3. Stanley, K. Edward, L. Hatch, B. (2003)_The Family Report: Choosing Happiness? London, IPPR

4 Gopnik, A. Meltzoff, A. Kuhl, P. (1999) How Babies Think London. Weidenfeld & Nicolson
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