ODD?

[StudentMadwife]

My sons behaviour problems have been getting progressively worse the last 12 months. Have now reached the end of my patience and am taking him to dr tommorrow for a professional opinion.

Id like to hear how you get by on a "normal" week, what sort of incidents do you encounter? what about outside the home? at school/nursery?

Im not trying to self diagnose him, simply trying to gauge where his behaviour is-inside or outside the normal range for his age- 4.6 years

TIA

[StudentMadwife]

bump

[SlartyBartFast]

can you give some examples?

[StudentMadwife]

Will do in the morning!

[AvenaLife]

I used to have a little PITA. A mumsnetter recommended a book called the Unwritten rules of friendship and now he's lovely.

Tell all and I'll be back in the morning.

[S1ur]

I'll tentatively recomend 'how to talk' as a good book bt will revisit tomorrow.

Mine are 4 and 2 so not exactly the same anyway I suppose.

[StudentMadwife]

ok, this is going to be long...

From the start

The first seed of worry was planted when ds1 was approx 13months, I remember walking into the living room to be confronted with a perfectly straight line of toys cars spanning about 6m long, it shocked me initially as Id never seen children of that age do something like that but just thought "ok" and didnt think any more of the activity.

When ds1 was 20 months, ds2 was born. ds1 handled this extrememly badly, he would suddenly hit out at ds2 whenever I would hold him of b/f him and we had to lock(by the way of a sellotaped stairgate!) ds2 away to prevent him sustaining multiple injuries.
The fist year after ds2 was born I felt like ds2 was neglected in some ways because I couldnt give him the time because all my energy and attention was on ds1.

Throughout his 2/3rd years his behaviour started becoming more challenging but I just thought terrible 2's/3's etc

I guess its been since just before his 4th birthday that things have got terrible. We had an incident at the supermarket with the esculator( one second he was stood beside us at the till,SECONDS later he was hanging off the outer side of the esculator, clinging to the hand belt and heading towards a pillar about 40ft up, that would of knocked him clean off) he escaped serious injury by seconds.
At the time I was in shock, but now these impulsive, dangerous situations are a common and frequent part of our life. Its exhausting.

Ok, Ive rambled on, ill sum up what the problems are here-

*No thought behind his actions
*Extremely Impulsive
*Abscondes if front door accidently left unlocked

• finds it v hard to listen
  
• wont/cant?? act on what hes being asked/told etc
  *loses temper almost constly throughout the day
  *argues constantly
  *deliberately and constantly does things to annoy others-this takes many forms from touch/violence/sounds+"parroting"
  *incessant talking
  *will not own up/lies, even when it could only of been him
  *gets frustrated and angry over tiny things
  *is consistantly spiteful/vindictive
  *swears and uses innappropriate phrases/words
  *doens't understand the broundries of socially acceptable behaviour eg going out to play naked/in pants
  
  Thats what I can think of right now, but oviously isnt the whole picture.
  We have tried every parenting trick in the book, they work with ds2, but not with ds1.
  Its got to the point now where we rarely go out because its so stressful.
  
  I felt I had to take him to the drs now because hes showing no stopping of these problems and they seem to be getting worse rather than subsiding- I can barely restrain him now when he is violent or lashing out, nevermind when hes even bigger/stronger. Nursery have had the same problems and now he has just started school and it worries me that he might bully at school or become isolated because hes too much in their face and most children find him a bit much/OTT
  
  Anyhow, we went to the drs and she has referred him the the paed and now we just have to sit tight and wait.....

[aSlurOnBrilliantScientists]

1 - does not ring alram bells. lots of toddlers are ocd about lining things up ime. OMG the obsessive games mine have had, involving absolutley particular ways of doing things!

2- sounds like usual parent guilt and sibling adjustment.

3 - challenging behaviour, yes par for course.

Okay last point - the one that counts and is crux to your worry.

Okay, gosh a lot of worries there. You must be having a really tough time, he sounds like a difficult person to live with!

Yes there are unacceptable behaviours there (obv) and also behaviours which would make me want to actively do something, which you are. Some of the stuff could be ordinary emotionally immature stuff. And usual. Other bits make me think a bit of extra focus on social interaction would be a good thing.

So lets see what paed says but in meantime, I reiterate that 'how to talk so kids will listen' would be a good book for you.

It might help you find ways of coping with his anger (and your frustration)

[Niecie]

Nothing leaps out at me as being particularly odd, except lining up the cars which is classic Aspergers although even then perfectly normal children can sometimes do it. Does/did he do it regularly or was it a one off?

That said, it is a question of degree, i.e. does the child do these things more often/much worse than others?

It is good the GP has referred you because, even if there is nothing to worry about, it will be good to have a professional confirm that for you.

However, I have to say, ime if a mother thinks there is a problem then usually their gut instinct is right. Has the school said anything? It would be good to get their view before you have your appointment.

Good luck - the wait can be long for paed appointment but I hope it isn't too long for you.

[StudentMadwife]

"Some of the list is entirely normal some of the time" which is exactly what everyone else tells me, although this isnt some of the time its ALL the time, something I read the other day summed it up completely-
"Its the overall pattern thats relevant, not the intermittant flashes of normality"

Niecie-he does it frequently and has recently started grouping stuff eg like pegs into colours which has set more alarm bells ring in my head.
He also does this sucking thing, sometimes with a piece of matierial, sometimes without, hes done this since birth but not sure its anything to worry about.

[StudentMadwife]

Its hard to get an opinion from school as he only started on monday. Nursery have been working closely with me for the past 2+years trying to keep as much consistancy between home and nursery as possible.

We had a chat with our HV the other day but she seemed to turn the problems round towards me eg Ive been clinically deppressed since June-what she failed to understand was these problems have been there long before june and that the behaviour has contributed significantly to the depression-Im depressed because we have run out of ideas trying to manage the behaviour and its getting worse and after a long while of people telling you dont worry/its normal/hes just a boy/he'll calm down when he gets to school/its a phase/its his age, it brings down your self esteem as a parent because you feel you must be the one at fault and you must be doing something very wrong for him to be how he is.

[StudentMadwife]

aSlurOnBrilliantScientists -Have had a read through some extracts of 'how to talk so kids will listen' and not really sure its relevant, but will ask my hv if they got a copy for me to read through.

[HonoriaGlossop]

1. seems normal for his age
2. again, can be normal for this age and older!
3. Again yes I would consider this normal
4. yes, very normal and sometimes it's so hard with kids because it's about speaking to them in a way they can hear, each child is individual and our natural way of speaking as a parent may not actually be what they need; very hard, but normal
5. Won't can't act to do what told; again, normal. Kids only do what they want to do. It's again often about how it's asked or told and some kids need very 'specific' handling

6, 7: arguing, losing temper, doing things to annoy. Normal if child is attention seeking.
8: Incessant talking: Normal and I would say a healthy part of development
9: Yup kids will lie even if obvious they are caught out. I believe again this is a natural stage of their development; human nature when powerless; you do whatever you can to avoid the consequence!!!
10: frustrated and angry over tiny things; god, yes, this is all kids this age, surely!! If not my ds is odd!
11, 12: Spiteful, etc, swearing; can be attention seeking. Also this is too young to have developed empathy to others so the behaviour IMO should be seen as normal
13: again utterly normal for this age, children IME usually older when body consciousness pops up.

Having said all that, he is clearly a hugely challenging child so even if he has nothing diagnosable (and it really doesn't sound to me that he has) then approaching GP etc will hopefully get you some more input and help. Even being re-assured by a Paed that he's normal (if that is what happens) may help to take the pressure off. IMO there's a huge range of normal for kids this age and some are way, way, way more challenging than others. You sound like you're coping well with a hard child. Hope you do get some useful help.