Why is my child being nasty, destructive & so damned difficult to deal with?

[bunjies]

Despite having 3 children I am facing a situation I have not had to deal with before. My 3rd child, dd2, is 3 years old and has turned out to be my most frustrating & infuriating child. She can be nasty & willful and deliberately destructive and it's really getting me down. When she is naughty we tell her she will be put in her room if she does it again/more. If she carries on we count to three and then if she hasn't stopped she is put in her bedroom for a few minutes. If she isn't calm then time is added on until she has been quiet and calm for 3 minutes. Very often she will run off when we have counted to three and will bite & scratch when we have to carry her to her room. She is usually in her room for more than 3 minutes! Nastiness is often displayed through her behaviour with our animals. She will pick up our cats by the tail & our chickens by their necks even though she has been put her in her room repeatedly for this kind of thing. She will deliberately take & destroy her siblings' things. It always seems to be a battle of wills with her and I am finding it increasingly difficult to manage her behaviour. She is also very loud and has to be told to be quieter.

I am hoping that someone will post & say this is all completely normal behaviour and that she will grow out of it or at least that they have experienced the same and come out of it unscathed!

[HonoriaGlossop]

oh it does sound normal to me - stressful for you, but well within what's normal for a feisty 3 yr old!

I think it could well be that as the third child she has to be a little louder and a little more 'out there' to get attention, and perhaps that's coupled with you not being able to be as 'on top' of her as you would be if she was your first?

I hope you don't mind me saying so (offended someone on a thread earlier without meaning to so am being paranoid today ) that maybe you are setting her and yourselves up to fail by trying TOO hard to regulate her behaviour when she's having time out in her room.

You almost 'move the goalposts' for her - if she carries on strangling chickens (bless her!!!) then she is told she will go to her room etc; THEN is added on another proviso - that she has to be calm for 3 minutes. I think that's a big, big ask and may just be making an unecessary battle for you all.

My own view was that the time out is the consequence; once the time is done, that's it. You can't MAKE her calm. She will calm when she is able. I didn't expect a calm ds to come out of his room if I did give him time out, I just expected him to have experienced that consequence.....I tihnk even if they come out still ranting, that is them just saving face and giving vent to the frustrations you feel when you're a powerless being!

I also think it must be very hard for her to be told to be quieter....she may literally not have that capacity yet; some children just are loud. Again, a consequence can be applied if it's being done at end of tether level just to annoy you, as in time out in her room.

I think my approach would be clear consequences to actions such as breaking someone else's toy coupled with really, really picking your battles, and using lots of distractions/games/challenges to get everyday things done

HTH

[cory]

Having seen many children in my day - large extended family, two separate toddler groups, lots of friends with children - I would agree with Honoria that this sounds like normal behaviour. Not something every child will do, but common enough.

I was a bit like this apparently. Didn't have access to animals but I did break that china doll against my little brother's head, and wouldn't take no for an answer, and spent a lot of my early childhood sitting on the kitchen table (our naughty step). I have been a fairly well adjusted, responsible, well behaved member of the community since the age of 5 or thereabouts.

Dd had big temper tantrums round about age 3. Eight years later her school report (arrived today) says she is well-mannered and eager to please. So that's all right then (big sigh of relief ).

What your older children were like at this age has nothing to do with it. She is she and that is what you have to deal with now.

Apparently my big brother was a good boy.. But I've still managed to keep out of jail...

[Pheebe]

She has spirit! Its tough for you all now but it will carry her through life.

No real advice beyond what you're doing already, calm consistent parenting.

[bunjies]

Thank you all for the replies and I am certainly not offended by your comments HonoriaGlossop!

I think I knew that this is normal behaviour it's just so difficult to deal with sometimes, especially when you think she's only doing it to deliberately wind you up. I wish I knew of a better coping mechanism for when she is being constantly difficult. If we ignore her she will keep upping the ante until she has done something really crap. Like weeing herself deliberately whilst sitting on her sister's bed because I'm not allowing her to distract me.

Today she stepped on my foot because she didn't give herself enough room to walkround me but when I told her to be more careful about where she was walking she deliberately stepped on it again

I really thought by child no 3 I would have seen it, done it all but this has been a real shock to the system.

[DarthVader]

Try reading "Playful Parenting" and doing 1 to 1 play sessions each day with your dd where she has your full attention and can direct the play - and you - herself. Her behaviour comes from needing your attention so this may help to give her the positive attention she needs, and should also make you both feel closer.

It sounds like you are in a negative cycle at the moment where she does destructive things to get your attention, then you punish her by putting her in her room so she gets no attention.

[cory]

Just goes to show, doesn't it? And should be a lesson to those of us who think we know it all because we've raised one or two: teach us not to be too smug with other Mums who may be struggling with problems we never had. Perhaps if I had another one, I'd be in the same boat.

Actually, I was lucky because it was no 1 who was high maintenance, so no 2 came as a pleasant surprise.

[bunjies]

God I feel really bad now for her, poor thing . She must be feeling so crap if she has to resort to this sort of beahviour to get my (any) attention. You're absolutely right DarthVader about the negative cycle. It feels like all I do at the moment is be negative with her as all she seems to do is destructive things. I know you've recommended the book & I would like to follow this up but in the meantime can you (or anyone) suggest some activities that I can do with her that would help to break the cycle?

Thank you all so much for the replies BTW. They are much appreciated and helping me to put this situation in perspective.

[DarthVader]

Hi bunjies - I just read playful parenting and I love that book, it has made me enjoy playing with my daughter & she loves it. I have also discovered how to play with other people's kids (and how to enjoy it!) which is a revelation for me! The book recommends that you create "playtime" - this could be as little as 10-15 minutes at a time - clearly you have a busy life, and tbh this playtime can be quite hard work for a parent.

During this time you give your child your full attention and join in with whatever activity/ game they fancy. They get to chose the game, control the game, and also to control how you play the game. It helps to read the book to see why kids like to play the way they do which can seem boring/pointless/repetitive to adults, and once you understand why they sometimes play repetitively and what they get out of it, it becomes a much better experience for you as a parent rather than a pita. You can also subtly change the play a bit to achieve various ends. If I play tag with my 8 year old I pretty much never get to tag her, and she thinks that is just great. So playing games with your parents is not supposed to be like playing games with your friends as with your friends you are not in control very much and with your mum you have lots of control and therefore you can win all the time if you want to!

Kids like to "play out" their anxieties and fears so you will find out what they are easily through playtime. They also need to work out their frustrations and learn how to deal with new situations via play.

The book is very keen about the idea of kids and their parents feeling "connected" and sees this as a remedy to problems, and lack of connectedness as a cause of problems as well. Therefore when your child is badly behaved, you might want to try to get more connected with the child in a nice way instead of "punishing" the child by sending her to her room & thereby becoming more disconnected.

I think this book makes for happier kids & happier adults with much better emotional security and less frustration all round - as you can tell I can't recommend it heartily enough - give it a read! It is a very different approach in many ways to Supernanny et al.

Good Luck! There is a way back to enjoying each other's company (well most of the time anyway!)

[DarthVader]

There is also loads of humour in this way of parenting and using humour can really help to break out of negative interactions - and it's so much fun!!!

[tigana]

um...so...having eavesdropped on this thread on the basis that you are pretty much describing my nearly 3yo DS, I have nipped onto Amazon to hunt for playful parenting...only to find several books with that title...who is the author pleeeeease!

And bunjies.. [solidarity]

[DarthVader]

Playful Parenting by Lawrence J. Cohen! Would love to hear what you think of it!

The other mantra for me about good behaviour is that a tired or hungry child is a badly behaved one.

[tigana]

Learnt that mantra during recent torture session holiday...can't belive how many hours of obnoxious ds it took me to work out he was tired/hungry/bored rigid

[DarthVader]

somehow that seemingly basic rule has tripped me up so many times tigana

Durrrr

[googgly]

I completely agree about the attention thing. My HORRIBLE ds2 (also 3), turned into a really nice little boy, able to manage his hideous jealousy of ds3 really well by himself, once I took on board that what he wanted was for ME to play with him, even if it was only for 20 minutes when I came home from work. At breaking point I decided to try it (I know this sounds a bit ridiculous, but I'm being honest). So instead of coming home from work and going to make a cup of tea or whatever, and complaining about being tired, I started coming home, changing really fast, and getting stuck in to a puzzle, story or finger painting session - as in not just organising it but really doing it and talking to them about it. The change was almost overnight. I have also surprised myself by enjoying it. And if I'm really pooped, we all veg out together on the sofa watching Toy Story before bedtime.

[oneplusone]

how much one to one time does she get with you? she sounds to me like she is desperate for your attention, is there any way you could spend extra one to one time with her?

I read somewhere that all behaviour is communication, she is trying to tell you something and with kids it is usually that they want/need more attention from mummy.

[springerspaniel]

Just a quick one. My 3 year old sounds similar. Swings from moody teenager, to psychopath to angel child.

Just skim down the subjects in the parenting and behaviour groups and you'll see tonnes of stressed out parents of toddlers.

Doesn't solve the immediate issue but made me feel better that (a) it is normal, (b) it will pass and (c) we are not totally sh*t parents!

[desperatehousewifetoo]

All the above about spending special time together AND lots of praise.

It's horrible when all you seem to say is no', don't do that' to your child. I have to pick myself up every now and again as well and try to focus on the positives of my dc's behaviour (there is always a positive somewhere!).

I've got 8weeks of a currently grumpy 6yr old and whingey 3yr old ahead. Poitives, positives...

[bunjies]

Thanks again for taking the trouble to reply. I am definitely going to try & spend more quality time with her (as well as my other 2). I think I need to start gently though, maybe 10 mins, and work up from there.

[Elibean]

Sorry, no time to read all the thread, but just wondered...how have her siblings been with her, so far? Because in a couple of families I know, the youngest gets stuck for a younger one to act out on, IYSWIM...

[bunjies]

Hi Elibean

TBH my youngest calls the shots more than the elder two! She is usually the one to be nasty to her elder sister (my middle child) and can be very aggressive to my eldest son. This can all lead to a very negative atmosphere as the elder two get fed up with her and start having a go then either myself or dh has to wade in to prevent WW3! It's all so exhausting. It's funny I remember commenting to my dh when she was about 1.5 years old how much she enhanced all our lives and now look what's happened!

[OrangeKnickers]

hi, your 3rd child sounds similar to my littlest sister, who was the third dd. She would be nasty and spoil things for the family. Looking back I think it was all becuase she was the third child and she wanted more control and attention. Try and see things from her point of view, it's not fun being told what to do by four people, and being last in the pecking order. She's taking it out on the chickens!