Does breastfeeding mean no routine??(sorry long)

[NewMamaMia]

I am bf exc ds15 weeks(he is my 1st so please bear with me) and he has always been a bit of a nightmare when it comes to sleeping,eating etc.
Everything is still so random with him,and im lucky if he goes 3hours without a feed(night and day).
He will not go sleep unless i am near him,and when put down he immediately is aware and cries until is picked up.Every night and day i do try his cot,sometimes it works,sometimes(more often than not)it doesnt.Against my wishes he is now co-sleeping at night.
I have tried making a bedtime routine hoping that this will help him go longer at nighttime but as his feeds and sleeping etc are all over the place,some nights he misses his bath and bedtime is late late and not 7.
Is bf why there is no routine?Can i slowly get one while still demand feeding?Do u all think if he did have routine he night settle more?
I just dont know what to do and whats for the best.
Thanks to all who reply.

[whomovedmychocolate]

He's still very young to be worrying about routines. DD was about seven months before she started to go four hours of so and 14 months before she slept through.

Bedtime routines are a good idea - but generally he will find his own routine (it probably won't be ideal for you though ).

Don't worry you are doing fine. They do get over the clingy stage eventually too.

[foxythesnowfox]

Do you really need a routine? I only ask because I've done it both ways. I've found not having a routine easier as I have older children. But with DS1 I was exc bf and still had a routine by using the Gina Ford Contented Baby book. Once established it worked very well, but took a huge effort and lots of tears (his and mine).

By not having a routine I am feeding on demand and co-sleeping.

Having a routine I listened to a lot more crying to get it established.

There are pros and cons to both, both are as viable as each other. You sound like you really want a routine though.

[2Happy]

Relax.

You're exhausted, and you've done really well getting where you are, but this is the time where you start aching for a good night's sleep I think! Unfortunately there is nothing that guarantees a child will sleep through - routines, co-sleeping/not, ffeeding/bfeeding, dummies, whatever your Gran did that did your Mum no harm, don't you know etc etc etc Some kids sleep well, some don't.

Some kids do respond well do a bath/baby massage/feed/bed type routine, and it's worth trying; but be flexible. It doesn't really matter if one night his bedtime is 7pm and some it's 8pm, or later. It's the triggers that you're looking for ds to recognise.

Demand feeding is especially important to establish your supply in the early days of bfeeding - but at 15w it is not impossible to have a bit more of a routine. However, it may not suit your baby (some like routine more than others), and it may not suit your supply.

Have you tried a dream feed?
And re: the crying whe he's put down - have you tried a sling?
And there's nothing wrong with co-sleeping - studies have shown that bfeeding mothers who co-sleep in fact sleep better than non bfeeding co-sleepers.

[horseymum]

Yes, you can have a routine if you want, we found the 'baby whisperer' method worked well for us with ds1. One of the things was to EAT, have some Activity, then Sleep, then You -EASY! The main thing for us was that it broke the link between feeding and being able to sleep so that you weren't always feeding to sleep. however, i find that with dd2 she does have a feed before afternoon sleeps and bedtime but i put her down awake.

[bohemianbint]

My DS was exactly the same - and we were all suffering, him from never sleeping longer than about an hour, (ever!) and us from dealing with it.

My friend had started using GF and advised we gave it a whirl, so I did - not the whole shebang, but just loosely taking some of the feed/nap times. Turns out it suited him well and he slotted into it like a dream, and I never ever had to leave him to cry.

Worth a go, it saved our lives but am aware that all babies are different, might not be for everyone.

Good luck!

[Marici]

My DS is same age and also without a routine. Have tried not to worry too much about routine but instead think in terms of Rhythm and try to see patterns in the day despite what time it is. Also co-sleep and breast feed and find this is fine as can nod off as baby feeds. he wakes twice in the night but slightly different times so again no routine. Any routine they get into is shortlived anyway as they have a growth spurt or get ill.

Good luck.

[NewMamaMia]

thank you
i will try and be more relaxed and see what happens!(sorry i was abit blunt earlier~tiredness!!i now know why sleep deprivation is used to torture...)
am maybe up for a bit of GF, it seems to make sense!

[NellyTheElephant]

As some of the others have said it is definitely possible to have a routine (if you want to) when exclusively bf. I bf both my DDs and still had a fairly strict routine (based loosely on GF).

With DD1 I was all over the place as I didn't really have a clue what to do with a baby! After about 5 or 6 weeks I'd had enough of the complete chaos and so decided to give a routine a go as I was going crazy. I looked at the GF timings and thought I'd try and ease her towards them. In the event I was quite shocked by how easily it fell into place and the main thing I found was how much calmer and happier everything became for all of us (DD1 included). The most helpful thing I found was the nap timings - once I had the naps in place everything followed with the feeding and I was amazed how much better her night sleeping became once I structured day time naps and feeding a bit better. Word of advice - DO NOT follow any routine slavishly or expect everything to work immediately - use it as a guide, tweak here and there and don't expect immediate results!

DD2 was into a routine from day 1 (as I knew what I was doing) kind of GF timings but adjusted to fit round DD1, and I don't think she's ever really cried or fussed or caused us a moment's trouble - but then she's a much easier baby.

Oh and if you do use GF, i'd suggest you ignore her whole expressing routine thing - I never got what that was about at all!! I expressed occasionally so I had some milk in the freezer in case I needed it but certainly not in the rigid way she suggests!

[foxythesnowfox]

Yes, I never expressed using the routine.

Take what you want from the GF routine, but don't beat yourself up if it goes wrong from time to time. I pretty much followed the feeding times, sleep times followed quite well.

Good luck! Its not for everyone, but it is for some of us

[bohemianbint]

TOtally second what Nelly says, sounds exactly the same as me! If you can cope with the fly by the seat of your pants having no routine thing, then great, but I really couldn't and was much happier afterwards. As was DS, and has been a fabulous sleeper ever since - turns out he really needed us to help him out by putting him in a quiet dark room, he really couldn't sleep otherwise, no matter how tired he got.

[eyesofapanda]

I bf and had both dcs in a GF routine, only slightly more relaxed than she spells out in the book. It worked for me because I have the type of personality that likes order etc and I found I couldn't relax with feeding on demand. Both my dcs have been v easy going. I did the routine for my benefit, not the babies but they were both very happy with it.

[squigglywig]

Agree with what others have said - you can definitely have a routine whilst exclusively breastfeeding, it just depends on what you want.

The GF routines suit me and my DD down to the ground. She more or less put herself on them as soon as we began. They aren't for everyone, and following them obsessively is likely to lead to different, but equally horrid, stress but for some folk they really help. You know you and your baby best - if you think the chaos of these early weeks is taking it's toll on you now then the chances are that a routine might help you feel a bit more on top of things. Ultimately if your LO isn't happy with what you try they'll let you know!

If you do decide to use GF then please, please read the whole book. There is an awful lot of nonsense spouted about what she does/doesn't say which can presumably only be due to people not reading for themselves.

[peacelily]

I think you can have some semblance of a routine with a baby whilst breastfeeding. We were always consistent with the bedtime routine, bath, massage, cuddles, feed, bed. We stuck with this even if she woke up an hour later for a feed.

I fed her to sleep fpr ages. Falling asleep on their own is a developmental stage that all babies reach either sooner or later it's just very frustrating when it's later.

I've read ALL of GF and I think if it works and your baby fits into it naturally then that's a great result. Putting you and your baby through lots of screaming and hard work because a routine suits you better is IMO not helpful and a bit harsh on both of you.

For a tip I found the shush pat method from the baby whisperer book very helpful in getting dd to sleep. All the more beneficial because it doesn't involve any kind of crying it out.

As for feeding breastfeeding or formula feeding babies this young involves learning their cues and feeding on demand. They're living creatures not automatons and their needs differ at different times. In time a type of rhythm will begin to form. And every 3 hours at 15 weeks is fine! Shows the bf is going well!

[mumeeee]

15 weks is still very young to bein a routine. Just try and relax and not wory that he is still demand feeding.

[sarahloumadam]

I remember starting a similar thread when my DS was around 13 weeks and still feeding every 2 hours and cluster-feeding like mad all evening. I think that you read/hear so much about all-important routines that you just assume that you are a bad parent if you don't really have any. I got some v.supportive replies and found it v.liberating just to follow DS's lead.I found that DS stopped cluster feeding and started demanding earlier bedtimes eventually and we bath/massage him around 6 every night to help him wind down. So perhaps relax a bit but structure a bit of routine in to help him along. He sounds like he is doing a great job of bonding to you and feeding .

[Shitemum]

I bfed both mine but after the first 3 or 4 months I didn't feed on demand but more or less at determined times, which I adjusted as we went along and they got older.
They never demanded to be fed outwith those times and I never had to put up with them pulling at my top every half hour!
It will get easier...

[morningglory]

Yes, you can exclusively bf and have a routine. WIth both children (DS1:4 and DS2:12 weeks), I used/am using the GF routines, which have worked really well for me. Like others, I've adapted them somewhat, but the feeding and sleeping times are hers. Makes life soooooo much more manageable and predictable. I gently eased both children into them, but TBH, they seemed to slip into the routines really easily.

I did/do express to give them the last feed by bottle (I have sleepy babies, and a bottle at the last feed allows them to feed more efficiently, allowing them to sleep longer in the evening).

[blueshoes]

NewMamaMia, both my dcs were bf-ed. They sound a lot like your ds - non-sleepers, very aware of being alone and won't stand for it, won't be put down, hard work when awake, hard work to get to sleep and stay asleep, cried loudly and frequently inconsolably if things did not go their way.

I co-sleep with both of them as babies, bf-ing through the night - it was the only way to survive. Once I got over the initial mental block, I found I really liked the extra cuddle time, particularly because they were more difficult to love when awake!

Does your ds fall into this description: high needs baby.

If so, you might find attachment parenting a better fit for your baby than routine-based schedules. Your baby will still fall naturally into a routine with attachment parenting/bf-ing. It will become clearer around 3-4 months, hth.

[NewMamaMia]

just had a look at that high needs baby article and that is ds down to the ground!!!!!!!

without wanting to sound stupid, whats attachment parenting?

[blueshoes]

NewMamaMia, my sympathies about the high needs baby, from a parent of two myself, I know it feels terribly isolating. It is like you are the only one going though it, and all your friends' babies seem so much easier and offer pat solutions that don't wash at all with your ds.

The website I linked to is Dr Sears', who promotes attachment parenting. If you move around that site, it will explain all. He has also written a few books. I found his The Fussy Baby Book a lifesaver when dd was 4 months.

Will post more later ...

[backfire]

I bf all 4 of my children and had what I'd call a flexible routine. my first was a high needs sort of child, second a very laid back easy going sleepy sort (I'd have been on my knees with exhaustion had he been like his older brother; they're 21m apart). Third somewhere in between, and 4th...well he just had to fit in. With him i did a loose GF type routine. ie up at the same time every morning - that was inevitable anyway with a school run to do - feed, out for school run, back, maybe another feed, then sleep, then activity, baby gym, whatever, or just cuddling, singing, then another feed etc etc. I found it useful not to let my tinies go longer than a couple of hours (slowly stretching to three hours) awake. i'd put them down to nap even if they didn't seem tired. often it worked , particulary with the 4th whose early mornings were probably the most structured.

[blueshoes]

NewMamaMia, you have come to the right place. Although I don't know of other high needs babies in RL, you will find support from other mothers of high needs babies here, even those who babies are now older.

They fuss because of their personality. But the good news is that they get better and better with each milestone, sitting up, crawling, walking, talking. The more they can do, the happier they are. And as other easy babies start to become challenging toddlers, yours just gets easier. So hang in there.

Attachment parenting basically means going with the flow. Do what you need to keep baby happy, because boy does he let you know when he is unhappy. Forget about bad habits or makings rods for your own back. You have more immediate things to worry about. Co-sleeping, demand feeding, extended bf-ing, carrying around in slings, whatever it takes to get you through the day and keep baby on an even keel.

And don't feel guilty if your ds is still unhappy. Some babies are just like that, hth. My dd and ds are demanding, but they are also sparky, enthusiastic, cuddly and delightful, if also challenging. It will all become clearer when your ds is older. You won't want to exchange them then .

[blueshoes]

NewMamaMia, the only thing I would say about a routine, is on the sleep front.

If you have a ds who does not fall asleep on his own (eg neither my 2 EVER nodded off on their own, they just got more and more overstimmed and eventually hysterical), then YOU have to manage his sleep and naps, to ensure he does not get overtired.

You look for signs of tiredness (in my dc's case, when they started blinking hard, got random, did not know what they wanted and got upset for no reason at all) and then take active steps to put them down for naps, be that bf-ing to sleep, rocking, taking out in a buggy. I found that bf-ing to sleep stopped working reliably around 5+ months, and I had to resort to a buggy instead. So I would arrange for walks around their naptime.

Then I found that they would only stay asleep when the buggy was moving because they would wake the minute I stopped. Which means that I would have to keep moving or rocking them after we got home.

I lost weight very quickly!

I could not leave it to them to fall asleep or stay asleep on their own. They needed me to help them with naptimes and bedtime. It does get better gradually as their sleep matures. But at 15 weeks, your ds is still little ...

[BlueberryPancake]

15 weeks is very little, and I remember that time as being very difficult with both myDSs for breastfeeding. A tip I read in a book is to write down at what time your DS is sleeping, eating, and note his happy times and when he is feeling miserable. You might see after a few days (maybe 5 days ish??) a 'pattern'. What you can do then is to reinforce that pattern, and try to feed him at the same time and put him down at the same time - ish.

I did that with DS2 and it helped me work out when he would be hungry and tired, and I felt a lot more organised. I could plan activities (i.e. go out to see friends, go to playgroups, shop!) and I'd know when DS2 would be hungry/tired.

[NewMamaMia]

arrrrrrgh!!
ds is being such a rascal at the minute!I think i have given up on putting him down dozy!and at the moment hes just getting tired so quickly(growth spurt?its very unlike him to be tired at all really,lol) andlast night he woke up every hr and a half and wouldnt settle then even after a feed!!

It is isolating, i do have to agree with you, and without wanting to sound like a broken record it is nice to know that others are and/have gone through it.

One second hes happy as larry and the next its like hes the most miserable baby ever.
And tomorrow i may write down tmings and see if there are any patterns~but im pretty sure its all random
Bedtime is still all over the place~he should have gone to sleep at around 7(after bath,story etc) but didnt go until 10ish~fighting it all the way!