3 years old and driving a wedge between me & DP

[pippylongstockings]

Our DS1 is a lively 3yo. When he's good he's very very good and when he's bad he's horrid.
I feel I am firm but fair and as he is only 3 am prepared not to worry too much about the odd flash of temper and the constant rounds of NO!
But my DP feels that we are letting him get away with too much. And it is now causing stress between us. Today my DP was at home with us and he put our son in the corner several times for things that I felt were minor.
My DP will then talk and talk the issue to our DS who doesn't understand and he then gets to meltdown and just wants a hug because the rules have suddenly changed.

My DP's brother is very strict with his two children and to be fair they are well behaved but they are also 5 &6.

Things that my DP & I fell out about today are:
DS shoving his food away at mealtime and saying he doesn't want it. DS not using his fork & spoon properly. DS saying NO to getting dressed, using the potty, throwing a toothbrush at his brother.
All to me perfectly normal 3 yo behaviour that with a stiff no or general ignoring distraction can be dealt with but things my DP thinks we should be firmer about.

This is compounded by his mothers suggestion that our DS should have a separate table in the dining room and that if he misbehaves he should be made to sit at it to finish his meal not sit with us!

I feel like the voice of reason amongst the Victorians. Or am i being a wimp?
At what age are children old enough to know?

[Janni]

Very tricky and I can't say which of you is right. I have a three year old and I DO feel she understands how she should behave. She definitely tries it on to see what she can get away with.

I think what's REALLY important here though is that you and your DH agree on an approach that you can both live with. If you have different standards your DS will both be confused and forever playing you off against each other - not good for your relationship. So some compromise is called for here so that he knows you work as a team and that you are in charge.

The discussions, if you avoid blame, could bring you and DH closer together. I've found it useful for DH and I to talk about how things were done in our families, what we agree with, what worked or didn't work for us and our siblings. The point about his mother and his brother is a red herring. What's important is what you, as parents, decide for your children.

Good luck.

[HonoriaGlossop]

You are the voice of reason amongst the victorians!

I think your DP needs to lighten up and stop being so po-faced about his son. He's a three year old and he needs boundaries, yes - but there are many ways of giving those other than constantly putting a child in the corner. If he pushes his food away - ok, then he's finished it and he learns that he shouldn't push food away unless he really has finished because it disappears etc etc etc. It doesn't all have to be an authoritarian approach all the time.

and yes too much talking is pointless, and will just stress your ds out

[HonoriaGlossop]

meant to add, all the things you mention are so normal and if your dp is going to punish each and every thing like that it will be a miserable life for all

It doesn't have to be that way, as you clearly know; distraction is far better and a sense of humour is a bloody good thing to acquire....

[Lizzylou]

Definitely pick your battles, if you spend more time with your son then you will know what the potential flashpoints are.
Agree you do need to set some "ground rules" that you both stick to in order to provide a "United Front".

Good luck, I have 4 yr old and a 2yr old DS's, knackering, innit?

[catzy]

I had the same problems between me, my DH and our sons a while back. It went on for a long time and drove a big wedge between us all.

I would wait until you are both in a calm mood and the kids aren't around to talk it out, but be prepared to both compromise - that's the difficult bit. We tackled difficult behaviour one step and a time, i.e look at meal times and come up with a plan, suggest rewards rather than punishment when he eats his tea well and make sure that you are both following the same rules. You need to be rewarding/punishing together else little one will be confused and the behaviour will probably get worse not better.

The only other thing that I will tell you (this may not be the case for you) but it ended up that my DH felt that I overruled him, eg. when he was telling DS off for something that I felt wasn't right I'd go in and say 'don't do that' or 'he doesn't understand'. It really bothered him and part of my compromise was that if I felt he wasn't handling it right I would stay out of it at the time and talk to DH about it when DS wasn't around. (this was really hard for me) Sounds silly but it made DH feel alot better and he felt backed up. When I would talk to him about it later he would listen to me and we'd work it out (used to end in arguments). Now we work as a team and listen to each others views. DS's behaviour improved as well.

It went on along time and nearly split us up before I found out about how DH was feeling. And when I did I was totally shocked, how could anyone disagree with me and my parenting skills . It took me a long time to realise that as his Father he had as much input in decision making as me. Obviously he hasn't but it helps him to think he has.

Good luck I hope you can work it out.

[lucyellensmum]

The problem with sweating the small stuff is that the punishments lose their efficacy. So when he does something really wrong, that either puts him in danger or is downright rude or unacceptable, putting him in the corner will be water off a ducks back.

My mum used to lose it with me, and i would get a good hiding as an teenager. I dont want to get into a smacking debate, but i remember two of my friends worrying about being home later because their grandad (he was their carer) would be upset with them and tell them off, i was like, so what, whats the big deal. My mums quick temper lessened the effectiveness of punishments so i basically did as I wanted.

I do think your DP is being OTT about things, what does it matter if he doesnt use his spoon and fork properly, my DD (2.5) uses spoon fork, our spoon, knife, fork, fingers, feeds the dog at the table, wont sit still - its not a problem in our house. Outside she is expected to behave, and does. Throwing things at his brother is not on, he should be made to apologise and then possibly go in time out. But your DP is on a hiding to nothing and it will backfire for sure. I speak from experience, i have a 17 year old who completely rebelled as despite me preaching the whole "dont sweat the small stuff" regeime, i never could quite stick to it

[WideWebWitch]

You're right, all normal 3yo behaviour, your dp needs to back off and understnad about normal 3yo behavour. You are right, really, stick to your instinct on this and ignore his mother.

Poor boy, he's only 3!

[WendyWeber]

IT sounds as if DP may be comparing your 3-yr-old's behaviour with that of the 5- & 6-yr-olds.

Has he met many (any?) other 3-yr-old boys???

[vInTaGeVioLeT]

bloody hell he's only three - i think your DP needs to lighten up - i'm a c/m , my ds is 3 and 3 of my mindees are also three - what you've described sounds perfectly normal to me - my ds eats most meals with his hands[messy but no big deal] one of the mindees has great table manners but i think that she is unusal.

[blueshoes]

pippy, my dd 4.7 is often a nightmare at home of contrary behaviour. At nursery/school/outside the house, she is the model of good behaviour and dh and I get loads of kudos for that.

I just wanted to make that point about the well-behaved 5-6 year olds. Your dh does not know what they are like at home.

[pippylongstockings]

Catzy I think you have hit the nail on the head - I will frown at him or tell him to do something a different way when I think as you say I could have handled it better

I do respect that he will parent differently but feel the OTT level of discipline will not help a stubborn 3yo.

It's the talking that we can't seem to do - after the bad day yesterday my DP went out after tea and came home at 10pm so any chance of talking went out the window.

I feel at three and most of you seem to agree you need to pick your battles otherwise we would all be crying all day long. I guess maybe men don't talk about this stuff to their friends most of friends who have kids when I talk to them agree it is all perfectly normal - but the menfolk seem to not be able to acknolwedge this.

[ernest]

pippy, I can 100% relate to your post. I've also had v. similar problems with dh - to the point my nickname for him is Victorian dad! His favourite phrases are 'Do what you're told' or moaning to me 'Why don't they do what they're told',/He should be punished! It makes me laugh, cos his mum was so great with the boys and not heavy handed with him at all, and he was a right terror when he was younger.

We had many battles about it. I'm much more empathetic/tolerant/ I can see why they've done x,y or z. I was also convinced something wasn't 'quite right' with certainly ds2. We have 3 dss - now 8, 7 & 4. Since ds3 entered toddlerhood it's been hell - they clash terribly. But ds2 just presses his buttons. Dh has hit him many times and this was really hard for me to deal with. I said many times (mostly to myself,) if he was dp not dh and the boys' father I would've finished with him over it.

He punishes them/gets angry over things that don't bother me, and we have had many arguments about me undermining him. eg at meal times. ds2 has real fine motor problems, yet dh always going off on one about him not using his cutlery, but for me, there's a reason, I'll maybe ask or encourage him, dh will be ranting and shouting. I found him to be very bullying, and have said so loads of times.

Anyway, ds2 recently diagnosed with ADHD. This explains a lot of the problems we've had with him. It's weird, because all these years (miserable, angry years and parental clashing) I've been trying to get dh to lighten up with the boys. Now he's got a reason, as it were, an explanation other than the boys are disobedient or just plain naughty, now he has a reason and explanation for the behaviour his behaviour towards the boys has improved dramatically. Just in the last month, he's really starting to pick the battles, not to 'sweat the small stuff', be a lot more tolerant and calm. It has been a wonderful transformation, because you know what, dss behaviour has imporved now the cloak of tyranny has been lifted. Strict & heavy handed parenting doesn't necessarily equal better behaved kids!

In the absence of a dx which is what it took me, plus 8 years of talking, I don't know how you set your dh on this path. Our family life, parenting, relationship, marital conflict has improved dramatically since he came to this realisation. I don't know how you get it through to him? I'm busy reading a book called 'unconditional parenting' by Alfie Kohn, I think.

I don't agree with all of it, and am still (impatiently) waiting to get to the 'answers' section, but the first part speaks clearly about being too strict/controlling as a parent and how it is totally detremental. But might be too 'hippy' for him. I haven't dared show it to dh yet, but maybe with this amazing, surprise about-turn, maybe now I won't have to. We still have a long long way to go though?

I really hope you can somehow convince your dh to lighten up a bit. Either way, as others have said, you need to find a way to work together on this. It is really tough when your parenting styles differ so much.

And 2 ps, as others I think have said,

1. try to raise problems calmly away from kids, it is more effective, but I failed on this many times as I wasn't prepared to have a polite word after the event when he slapped my son.

1. you need to get him to get his mum to keep right out of it. You will have enough problems as a couple with you 2 disagreeing without her wading in with great suggestions and undermining you!

Sorry so long, topic close to my heart.

good luck.

[pippylongstockings]

Ernest, thanks for the reply and tips.
The thing my DP's father was a very victorian type dad - still is to his two boys in some ways. And up to now my DP has always been very different to this, a very happy go lucky, relaxed man.
He has always been a very hand's on dad but it's the controlling part I can't understand - to me my 3yo is a bright spirited little being but my DP really seems to struggle with the fact he can't always be controlled....

I'm interested in perhaps reading some books not too 'hippy' as maybe it would be good to share some ideas that I can show him.

Any suggestion?

[ernest]

Well, it is 'hippy' so I wouldn't buy it, but maybe try to borrow?, but out of the many kiddy books I've read, the Unconditional Parent gives the clearest & most thorough argument against controlling style parenting. It is very clear and makes some excellent tips.

I'm currently reading ADHD book by (graham?) Green, which has a chapter on parenting styles which touches on the ideas in the UP book.

I've read many times recommendations for 1-2-3 Magic, which I am considering getting. maybe a small chat about not being controlling, but emphasis being on a positive 'let's try this instead'? approach might work?

[SilentTerror]

Totally relate to this,and have to add that the Teenage Years are truly awful when you are not'togrther' on discipline.Our DD1 (18) had caused so many problems and arguments between us,not all her fault really may I add.
One thing my Dh says to me is that I like to be'Good Cop' to is 'bad Cop' and that seems to undermine him in the discipline stakes because the DCs now he will come down hard no matter what,so they tend to avoid him which is sad.

[BandofMothers]

Crikey, if he is trying to "control" his sons behvr he is in for a bumpy ride.
I thought with my relatively good dd1 who is now 4 that I have been consistent and firm but fair, and that as she got older she would understand and listen more, RIGHT.

I think she listens now, less than ever, and drives me crazy.
Everyone is right, pick your battles or you'll be fighting ALL the time. As it is I feel with a 4yo and a 19 mth old that I am ALWAYS saying, NO, DON'T, and STOP IT, etc

Perhaps print off the part of MN that tells you about your 3 yo. I find them quite useful in reminding myself what they should and can do at different ages. I expect unreasonable behvr sometimes from my 4 yo cos she has always spoken SO well, and I forget how young she really is.
DH recently said that I let our dd2 (19mth) get away with too much and am softer on her than dd1, but when I said to him, calmly and rationally that if he would think back to when dd1 was dd2's age he would probably find I disciplined in the same way, or actually am harder on dd2 as she is much naughtier than dd1 ever was.

your DH probably will try to do things like his dad did, as it is what he knows, these things are very cyclical.It just hasn't been an issue til now because your ds wasn't doind anything to trigger it.

Sit him down for a good talk, and ask what he thinks you should do, why and then tell him your view, but make sure you both listen to each other. Then the difficult part of trying to decide how to do it together

[BandofMothers]

www.mumsnet.com/devcal/10.html

Here is the 3 yo page.

Good Luck

[pippylongstockings]

BOM - thanks it is good to remind yourself and other halfs sometimes of the things they can & can't do.

I did try and talk to my DP yesterday - (we had a v.rare lunch date on our own) but when I wanted to discuss in detail which particular things we should be united on he did a u-turn and said we should just 'play it by ear'. It's so frustrating as this is exactley his 'old' type of behaviour so laid back and non-confrontational.
Aaarrrgghh !

I agree that he feels he has alot to live up to in his dad's shoes - and therefore although basically he does not like the way his dad parented - he was all gifts of motor-bikes for the kids one day, and throwing books at them the next. He does tend to do the same although not to the same extreeme. My DP will be all eat toast in front of the TV one day (can't be bothered to fight the tears) and then you must eat at the table with a knife and fork the next.

I guess we all make it up as we go along and have good days and bad - but I hate it when the bad days mean our DS suffers as he doesn't get a fair hearing.

[2GIRLS]

I have the same problem with my dp, to a certain extent. I think the problem is that I'm at home all day with them so am used to their behaviour and am able to tune out the small stuff more, otherwise I'd be in a total state of stress all day.
Dp comes home from work and is much more aware of their behaviour and things drive him mad that I've decided aren't important. So actually they are getting total mixed messages-when they're with me they can do xyz but their dad goes mad at the same behaviour (no wonder they're badly behaved!).

I'm also a lot more realistic about the dc's behaviour and although I want them to listen ect I know that they won't all the time and they will have tantrums and feel angry and I think it is important that they are able to express themselves and how they feel at home, but I do expect good behaviour when we're out.

My dp had quite a controlling childhood and it was quite horrible, and he doesn't want to be like his father and he very good usually, but sometimes we have huge rows when I feel that he's being unnecessarily harsh, I get very protective and sometimes we row in front of the kids which is not good I know!

I don't have any particular advice I'm afraid, just to keep on telling him you feel and the effect it may be having on the dc's and their relationship with their father-cos they might be children now but they will grow onto adults and remember their childhood!!

[pippylongstockings]

I have bought 1-2-3-magic - so will let you all know if it is!

Alot of it seems to make sense and they are things that I have been telling my DP already - ie don't over talk the issue with your DC's they are not little adults, and they were not born with reason and logic. Be consistant, you are in charge not them.

Funnily enough my DP seemed happier to take this 'critisism' as it came from a book not me.

The key it seems is no discussion and no emotion (you say no and that's that) - kids enjoy both as they know they have got to you. Not really convinced that my 3yo
will respond to this but once I feel we both know the rules suffciently I will try and see what happens.

[pippylongstockings]

If anyone else has had any success in this technique I'd love to know......
Or any negatives........