DS age 5 attitude problem!

[Baddaughterinlaw]

Our DS is driving us mad. A fortnight ago the head at school discussed his behaviour with us, rude, answering back, uncooperative, not concentrating etc. She is an excellent teacher had discussed it with him, read him the riot act, we backed it up at home with withdrawal of fav toy and fav tv programme. He seemed to have got the message.
However this morning I hear it has happened again, the day after he got his privileges back (which were removed for a week) he is exceedingly rude to another teacher and refusing to do his work. He is going to be seen by the head again and will lose his toys etc again and get a telling off at home, but I really don?t know what to do with him. He has to learn to respect authority.
The Head feels its about him pushing the boundaries, perfectly normal but I am aghast that he should be so rude ? he isn?t at home. She also feels that it is because they think he is bright and has got cocky about his ability and has decided that he doesn't need to do anything (am mortified!) which is now backfiring as he is getting behind!
What on earth do I do with him? Could something else be going in in his mind that is causing this?

[lollipopmother]

Ha, the loss of privilages brings it all back! I used to regularly lose ALL of my privilages for various things, it's the best way to go, it never did me any harm and it kept me in check. I can't say I was rude to my teachers but sending your child up to his room where he so happens to have a tv, playstation and various toys won't do anything. Plus it worked last time didn't it? I don't expect it's anything more than what the teacher said, he's got cocky and is just being a bit of a pain in the ass!

[whirly]

Does he do those things at home? Does he have a very strong-willed personality?
My DS, nearly 7 is similar, bright, but not by any means the best at reading, writing, maths etc. He is VERY strong-willed. His class teacher can find him quite uncooperative, etc, and as he is friendly with all the other likely lads, this can be quite disruptive. He has been saying that he doesn't like his teacher since Christmas, says it's boring in her class, she shouts, etc.
Coincidentally(?) we have been called in for a chat tomorrow about moving him to the other Y2 class...
Is your DS in Reception or Y1? Maybe he IS finding it boring? Not that that makes it OK to be rude, etc, of course!

[stealthsquiggle]

Whilst you clearly have to back the school up / read him the riot act / confiscate toys / etc, I think you also need to arrange a meeting with the school to find the root cause. If it is that he is bored, then can they find more challenging work for him? It is hard, as unless carefully timed he could end up seeing that as a "reward" for bad behaviour, but it does need addressing.

What does DS say when challenged? Can he come up with any explanation?

[Baddaughterinlaw]

He is Y1. He had said last term that it was boring which led to him being extended (cue rack and stretched child) but it seems that he is now getting behind as he got cocky. However nothing excuses rudeness, I am furious with ihm and its luck he doesn't get home until later! He is incredibly strong willed too.
Thing is I am gobsmacked that the very day after he gets his privilages back, he is rude, very very silly! I laughed out loud at school when they said he was bright as he didn't learn the hard way this time!

[GooseyLoosey]

Ds (4.10) is also having some behaviour issues at school. I also read riot act and impose sanctions etc. However, I have found positive reinforcement to be more effective. I was aware that there was a tendancy for dh and I to constantly be telling him that he had done something wrong - we shifted this to focusing on the fact that he could be good and praised him to the skies when he was. He is now eager for the praise and positive affirmation and is making a genuine effort.

In ds's case I am not sure what causes this. Part of it is that he tends to think that the world revolves around him (which I guess it does to a degree at home) and has problems recognising the different social structures and pecking orders which apply at school.

It is awful and I feel for you, it makes me feel like such a failure as a parent.

[Hassled]

You have my sympathies - I have a stroppy self-willed 5 year old DS3 myself. Most recent classic, when I told him he wasn't going back to the playground (after a bit of a scene), was to turn around, start walking back there and say "Watch me, sucker".

I have no real advice and as he's my 4th child you'd think I would have a clue - let's just hope it's testosterone related and that they will be lovely 6 year olds. They do all go through phases of pushing their luck and seeing what they can get away with - as long as you are consistent he will hopefully get bored of it soon.

[stealthsquiggle]

It seems that academically bright and learning lessons of this sort are not connected - not judging by my DS, anyway!

I agree with Goosey that you need some carrot to go with the stick - DS is absolutely fixated on star charts and will do almost anything to gain (and not to lose) stars - which go towards something which we probably would have bought him anyway. Although the star chart was his idea and I don't especially like them, I have to admit (but not to DS!) that it has helped me to make sure I acknowledge him being good/helpful instead of just constantly telling him what he is doing wrong.

[whirly]

Oh dear!
We have been down the rewards / loss of privileges route and it went badly wrong with me (and DH) getting crosser and crosser with him as it wasn't working. We have given that up for now and are just trying to stay calm!
Is he with alot of other boys (and girls!) who can be rude and silly too? I think that is why they want to try my DS in the other class. And the teacher in the other class had him last year too. He could be similar then but I think she was better able to handle him and he LIKED her. Does your DS like his teacher? What does he say about school - have you had a calm(!) discussion with him about what is causing the problem?

[Baddaughterinlaw]

'Watch me sucker' made me laugh out loud, we had, 'Mummy you are such a dweeb' cue Ben 10 being banned!
We have tried to do the praising thing, historically the little monkey had a confidence issue - that has backfired now he thinks he is Lord of the World!

[NAB3wishesfor2008]

We have the same here but my DS is nearly 7 and an angel at school and a pain at home. Sympathies.

[Baddaughterinlaw]

We have a marble jar which worked for a while, then he started making things up to paint himself in good light so now we have a trust problem. Example, 'Mummy today I was really good at school and I got a house point' reality he had been foul and will not be getting house points until he sorts himself out!
He loves school, likes his teacher. I do fear she is too quiet for him but as a 5year old he has to learn that teachers are in charge and require respect. That is what is expected at home with other adults.

[Baddaughterinlaw]

Also, getting cross doesn't work, we have been 'disappointed with him' which he hates.

[GooseyLoosey]

Interesting about the house points. We have had exactly the same thing, the first time he got them we were so congratulatory that they became a regular occurence. When I looked at the tally in school, I realised that ds must have earned every single one of them to have earned as many as they said. I now have regular chats with his teacher and they have reverted to a more normal level!

[whirly]

Agree absolutely that he has to learn that teachers are in charge and deserve respect, whatever their personality, but there are always going to be personality issues. Particularly for children with strong personalities. Can he articulate what it is that "makes" him answer back, refuse to do work, etc? Does he do homework at home - what happens then?

[stealthsquiggle]

OK I am scared now - DS is (I think/believe ) not yet devious enough to make things up in order to earn praise/stars - he is more inclined to work himself up about things going wrong - hence hurling himself out of school in tears and declaring in front of the whole playground "Mummy I'm sorry I lost a minute" Of course it could all be an elaborate cover-up but the list of those who haven't lost any Golden Time is published at the end of every half term so he knows he couldn't hide it for long

We are much more in NAB's situation - behaviour/attitude at home are way worse than at school.

[Baddaughterinlaw]

He does his homework, most of the time no problem. If he doesn't understand it he can get really stroppy. When we then go through it, he has normally understood it but has decided he can't be bothered, hence the attitude as he has been caught out. When I ask why he is rude, or answers back he can normally rationalise the arguement (grrrr at 5) but regardless, he shouldn't be doing it. Even if he has a disagreement he must learn that he can't have a go back. His school career will be pretty grim if he doesn't learn this! I am concerned that it is the teachers first year teaching which is possibly why the head has stepped in. It is also a tiny school.

[Baddaughterinlaw]

He is a handful at home and needs constant keeping in check but he knows his boundries and we are pretty careful about keeping him contained but am mortified that it is worse at school It is actually the reason he is in a little school as we realised pretty early on he needs close watching. He is a devious little monkey and in a bigger school I dread to think what he would get up to! So many people are amazed when we say this about him, they think he is an angel - he just plays a game all the time and its very very waring.

[whirly]

Homework sounds like my DS!
If the teacher is newly qualified, then although she may be the loveliest person, she will not have the skills that SOME experienced teachers have in managing behaviour - your son has worked this out (though maybe not consciously!) and is playing up!
FWIW, no-one ever thnks my son is an angel - what you see is what you get in all situations! He's not always difficult, but suffers fools badly and if HE doesn't feel like doing it, he will let everyone know!
It is mortifying that he is being rude, etc, but I'm sure no-one thinks you condone it.

[HonoriaGlossop]

I just wonder if it's counter productive and too negative to 'back up' the school by taking away priveleges at home. I err on the side of what goes on at school, stays there and that home is a fresh start.

Obviously you need to support and back up his teachers and the school but you can do that simply by being available to talk to them when they request it and it being clear that you are happy and agree with any sanctions they're imposing at school.

I do agree with whirly that your ds, being a strong personality, is sparring with this teacher a bit if he senses she's inexperienced at dealing with behaviour.....he may just need clearer boundaries at school.