Can it be the hit child's fault, not the hitter?

[seeker]

My ds (6) was playing with his cousin (7) today. DS was being very irritating, swinging the same song over and over again. Dn asked him to stop. He didn't, so dn hit him. Hard. He cried a lot, and he's not a crying child. My brother saw it, told his son off, made him say sorry (which he did, sort of) then told my ds off for provoking him and not stopping when he was asked, and made my ds say sorry to dn for winding him up. The level of telling off was exactly the same. I am absolutely livid - I tried to challenge it at the time but I was overruled, and I didn't want to make an issue out of it in front of the children. I agree that ds was being annoying, but is it right that he should be made to accept responsibility for being hit? Surely hitting is ALWAYS the hitters fault - whatever the provocation? Or am I being precious and over protective?

[seeker]

Singing the same song that it - not swinging. That would be even more irritating......

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

What were you doing to stop your DS from winding up his cousin?

[saadia]

I think you're right, no-one should get hit for singing.

[chocolateface]

This scenario happens between my DS's alot. And to be honest, I tell them off eqaully.

[morningpaper]

Children are allowed to wind each other up by innofensive things like SINGING

Violence is ALWAYS WRONG

[WendyWeber]

Me too, chocface - well not so much now because they're older, but when they were little the winder and the windee both used to get bollocked (in the interests of future harmony, ie there is nothing to be gained by infuriating your siblings)

[misdee]

quite often it is 'stop hitting your sister' and 'stop winding your sister up'

[serenity]

As far as I can see the children were told off for different things - your DN quite rightly for hitting, and your DS for being annoying. Your DS didn't 'deserve' to be hit, but by the same count your DN didn't deserve to be the butt of your DS irritating behaviour. I've been in similar situations with my DCs, and I will and do tell all of them off. It is difficult though when it's someone else doing the telling off, but it's good that your brother felt comfortable enough to tackle both of them.

[Runninglate]

Being taunted is one of the most annoying and frustrating feelings. I personally think that both were in the wrong: your ds for deliberately winding Dn up after he being asked to stop singing the song and Dn for handling his frustration physically rather than in a more acceptable and 'grown up' way. Dn will have been pretty annoyed by the time he had asked your ds to stop singing, so although wrong, you can at least understand why he flared up when pushed.

IMO, Dn needs to learn not to react physically and to handle annoying situations differently and your ds needs to learn that other people's feelings matter and if something is that important to someone, then he needs to take that on board and act compassionately, even if he thinks its silly.

[powder28]

I suppose your brother was trying to make them both accept reponsibility for their actions without making one child think they were being treated unfairly.

[seeker]

Iheard him singing, but I didn't realize that it was winding dn up - it had only been going on for a few minutes and I was in the next room. I am taking my brother's word for it that dn was provoked beyond endurance.

[crispyduck]

I agree with Powder28....

[mollymawk]

I think it is fair to tell a child off for deliberately annoying another (if that was what he was doing). That is to be discouraged whatever the consequence. It would seem unfair if they didn't get told off just because the other child then did something worse.
But I guess the telling off has to make clear that the "badness" of the annoying behaviour is totally independent of the "badness" of the violent behaviour so that the violence is not condoned.

[madamez]

While it's always a worse sin to be the one who escalates to physical violence, when it comes to kids winding each other up (particularly kids who spend a lot of time together) you'd go absolutely mental trying to balance out the correct amount of bollockings to administer all day every day. Also, in this case, because it involves your siblings kid, there's probably a certina amount of ancient family "but he started it'" feelings on your part that might make you crosser. Try to let it go for your own peace of mind.

[seeker]

I don't think he was singing AT his cousin - he was just singing the Thunderbirds theme song. Several times!

[morningpaper]

I don't tell my children off for being annoying

I find them annoying ALL DAY

I've never thought of "taunting" as being particularly awful TBH

[frances5]

Its hard to judge with only knowing your side of the story.

I think you should have intervened if your child was being well and truely annoying.

Sometimes its best not take sides in a dispute between small children.

[seeker]

You've probably hit the nail on the head, madamez. Uncomfortable but true. Shame you can't divorce your family........!

[kiskidee]

what did any of the adults present do to intervene when
a) ds was obviously being annoying and
b)dn was obviously being wound up?

[lillochum]

I am a peace-loving person who is positively scared by any confrontation. I have vivid memories of my much-loved brother driving me insane with his teasing. It didn't matter how much my mum would say "just ignore him", he knew just how to wind me up and make me lose it. I remember my dad banging our heads together when I had lashed out at my bro - the punishment might be a bad idea, but I reckon the principle was right. With my own kids I tell off the teaser and the lasher-out, but I must say the lasher-out has to have clearly said "you are irritating me" for the teaser to be at fault at all.

[chocolateface]

Seeker, did you tease your brother when you were children?
It could affect both your responses to this situattion. DH and I were both the yongest in our families, and we just can't tolerate teasing.

[seeker]

My brother is 8 years older than me (and used to tease me!) - so I probably over react to him exerting authority!

There honestly wasn't really time for anyone to intervene - the boys we in the next roo, I heard the dulcet tones of ds covering McFly, a bit of argy bargy (brother was in the room for all of this) then a thud, howls and brother distributing Solomon type justice!

[pansypants]

did they play nice after? if so perhaps you are more upset about it than they are.

[custy]

i think your brother was right.

i dont think he should have been shouted at for being hit.

but he was being beliberatly obtuse.

i dont think that by telling your son off one is giving the message that he deserved to be hit - but rather that its not nice to be deliberatlyy annoying over an elngated period with people with whom you are trying toplay nicely with.

[Blandmum]

It is always wrong to hit (except in real self defence)

However there is a small group of children who will deliberatly provoke others. I have seen this happen many times. Often the provoker will 'work on' a range of children until they get the response they 'want'. It is most strange to see, but I have seen it many times.

I would always tell the child who hit off, and punish them. I would also lecure the provokee on the inadvisibility of annoying people who might thump them!