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to think this is not an example of rape?

(82 Posts)
hereidrawtheline Thu 23-Jul-09 23:23:05

I really do not mean this in a hostile way. But I know someone whose boyfriend says he was raped by a woman and I just cant get my head around it.

The circumstances were they were friends, she wanted more, he didnt. He told her so. Then one night they got high together and had pretty standard vaginal sex that she initiated by making the first move. He was by his own admission on top for at least part of the sex.

He then said the next day she raped him because she knew what his wishes were and she turned him on while in a drugged up state knowing he couldnt act on his principles.

Now I understand he regrets what happened and I dont personally think either of them are on a moral highground & also probably not top of the IQ charts - I say this because I have the wider picture of this guy generally drifting around doing bugger all while he smokes pot and rants about the man. All of which done singly is acceptable but when combined for years on end does somewhat detract from your intellectual appeal factor. So it is just as fair for a guy to regret sex as a girl, we are all susceptible to doing stupid things under the influence. I see that as unfortunate but not necessarily rape. I mean, if he had an erection and was on top its hard to call it that surely? Or am I being really sexist without realising it? Of course a man can be raped but like that??

Been bugging me for years actually this all happened many years ago & the guy went to rape support groups and everything.


Lifeinagoldfishbowl Thu 23-Jul-09 23:31:16

Yes it's rape


hereidrawtheline Thu 23-Jul-09 23:32:27

really? well I did ask.

I just think... at the time they were both for it. Who is to say her moral judgement wasnt clouded by drugs as well as his? I dont know. Oh well.

skybright Thu 23-Jul-09 23:32:46

No,if that's rape then goodness knows how many folk could say the same as they had got pissed and ended up screwing someone they should'nt have.

I take it he never reported it?

PeedOffWithNits Thu 23-Jul-09 23:33:18

as you report it, no I don't call that rape. he regretted it afterwards, but was not forced struggling against his will, with threat of violence.

if he was too high/pissed to help himself, whos to say she was capable of remembering his wishes previously expressed to stay just friends

slyandgobbo Thu 23-Jul-09 23:33:22

I don't think that's rape.

hereidrawtheline Thu 23-Jul-09 23:34:09

no he didnt report it.

clearly the important element is they were both on drugs so neither had good sound judgement?

skybright Thu 23-Jul-09 23:34:21

If she spiked him then that would be different,if he is willing to get out his face with her knowing that there is history there.......

filchthemildmanneredjanitor Thu 23-Jul-09 23:34:54

how in gods name is that rape?

i think that is shameful to describe that as rape and it does a diservice to peopl who have actually been raped.

just because you get turned on doesn't mean you have to do soemthing about it fffs

hereidrawtheline Thu 23-Jul-09 23:35:50

I know he clearly regretted it, which is sad as I know how terrible that feeling is. But a bad decision and rape seem two separate things.

And I reported it exactly as he did to me and my friend many times while he "worked through it". I am not saying that in a patronising way just literally quoting him.

skybright Thu 23-Jul-09 23:35:59

Actually it really sounds that he has taken no responsibility for his actions,did he have a girlfriend at the time?

hmc Thu 23-Jul-09 23:37:19

Not rape.

hmc Thu 23-Jul-09 23:37:48

No force or coercion.

Persuasion isn't the same as coercion, neither is persistence.

hereidrawtheline Thu 23-Jul-09 23:37:56

he was in a very casual relationship and that is what I thought too. That it was an excuse because he cheated while high.

And as I said in my OP I do think men can of course be raped that is blatantly obvious! I just objected to this being labelled that and always used to feel sick to my stomach when he talked about going to support groups etc.

ravenAK Thu 23-Jul-09 23:38:11

Not very nice behaviour on her part but not rape.

& I'd say exactly the same if it were a woman I think - someone initiates sex, you take a full & active part in that sex, you then wish you hadn't = not rape.

It's only rape in my eyes a) if you are withholding consent during the act ie. by saying 'No', or otherwise resisting; or b) if you're in no fit state TO consent because you are unconscious or 'under the influence' in some way that compromises your ability to consent.

Having on a previous occasion indicated that you don't fancy the person with whom you subsequently cop off whilst stoned?

Can't see a woman getting a conviction if she tried to press rape charges against a man in similar circumstances tbh.

pushmepullyou Thu 23-Jul-09 23:44:14

Hmm, I would tend to say it's not rape. If you consent to something you later regret (which it sounds like he did by the being on top?) then that's unpleasant for you, but not rape.

I've been raped, and I've also had sex with someone I didn't really want to because I was too drunk/tired/listless to say no. Now I don't feel particularly good about either experience but I only shouted 'no, get off me' in one of them. To me rape is where the person who is doing the 'raping' is fully councious at the time of the event that the other person is not up for it and does not want to be involved. The second time, although I felt violated the person I was with did not know how I was feeling and would have stopped had I asked - a rapist wouldn't (and didn't).

It is a huge life changing thing to be raped, but it is also a huge life changing thing to accuse someone of rape and imo should not be done lightly.

Mspontipine Thu 23-Jul-09 23:56:44

He spent time on top fgs.

BitOfFun Fri 24-Jul-09 00:09:57

Not rape because he didn't withold consent at the time and was conscious enough to actively participate. But I'm prepared to hear other views.

kathyis6incheshigh Fri 24-Jul-09 00:12:11

Well the argument for it being rape would come down to ' b) if you're in no fit state TO consent because you are unconscious or 'under the influence' in some way that compromises your ability to consent.'

Does being stoned mean you can't meaningfully consent?

hereidrawtheline Fri 24-Jul-09 00:18:04

yes but what when both parties are stoned? doesnt it somehow cancel out? If a sobor person puts someone purposefully in a position where they are off their heads and vulnerable then there is culpability.

Pan Fri 24-Jul-09 00:20:51

BoF is exact. According to the Sexual Offences Act 2003 he is nowhere near being a "victim" of rape. He aceded to events in full knowlege, was able to withdraw consent. The assailant here has to reasonably believe he was giving consent. Which she clearly has grounds to believe he was re erection, active part etc.

Utter tosh. He is being a tad of a masochistic drama queen.

ravenAK Fri 24-Jul-09 00:24:41

Depends how stoned!

I'd argue no, not if you're capable of actively participating in sex as opposed to being a passive recipient.

But agree with BOF that there's obviously other views to be heard.

From my own POV - I'm with pushmepullyou.

I've been raped, & I've also been in a situation where I wasn't keen but didn't actively resist, & the other person involved would be horrified to think that he'd 'raped' me, & would absolutely have stopped had I asked rather than just confusedly thinking 'Oh ugh, I seem to be drunkenly having sex with X, hurry up will you'.

It's two very different experiences. The OP's friend seems a bit confused about the difference between 'rubbish, regrettable sex' & 'rape'.

violethill Fri 24-Jul-09 00:29:48

Thank you for posting pushmepullyou and ravenAK.

I think it's hugely important to hear honestly and openly from people who have been raped, and know how it feels, and have the courage to admit that they have also been in other situations which have been unpleasant and regrettable but which don't equate to rape.

In the interests of justice for everyone, rape victims, and victims of false accusations, it's essential that this distinction is made.

Pan Fri 24-Jul-09 00:32:39

The 2003 Act made massive strides forwards in all sexual assault matters. Specifically for rape, it put the emphasis on the alleged assailant to "prove" the victim was a willing participant, not just say "well he/she didn't complain"..

hereidrawtheline Fri 24-Jul-09 00:32:59

I want to say thanks as well. I was a bit worried when pushmepullyou and ravenAK told their stories as I dont want anyone to be hurt by terrible memories from a thread I started & I guess I wanted to protect you of sorts. I've been raped as well and abused as a child so I know how devastating it is but I really dont like talking about it.

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