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Can we have a little chat about judging please

(59 Posts)
Kimi Fri 29-Aug-08 22:42:32

Ok I have been a mumsnetter for over 5 years and I tell it like it is, I have not made many friends as I am blunt, outspoken and to the point.

I have looked at many things from a different point of view since being here and I have learnt a lot and I am thankful to all the lovely people who have shared my point of view and to all the lovely people who have made me stop and think about things from a point of view I never thought of before.

The reason I love mumsnet is because not everyone is the same and it really has made me a better person and a better parent.

But I do get fed up with the whole "your judging" thing.

OK till I have walked a mile in someone else's shoes it may be hard to understand their point but sometimes just sometimes it is ok to make an observation and it is fact not judging.

If you see someone beating a child you don't need to know why to know it is wrong, and to say it is wrong is not judging it it stating fact.
Yes we all look at thinks from our own point of view, but to say something is wrong, is ok and a lot of the time open to debate, not just called judging.

Thats it really

hatrick Fri 29-Aug-08 22:44:26

Message withdrawn

Kimi Fri 29-Aug-08 22:45:44

Oh my grammar is shite.... dyslexic I am afraid grin

hecate Fri 29-Aug-08 22:49:56

There are very many blunt, outspoken and to the point MNers who are much beloved, (hell, this is the HOME of the blunt, outspoken and to the point!) so if you feel you haven't made friends, there might be another reason.

As to judging. <shrug> oh well. Who cares? I do it as required and I don't much care what anyone else does or doesn't judge. You've got the right to put your pov, so have they. Their pov is that you (the general 'you' not you specifically, iyswim grin) are judging. Your pov is that something is twatish and in need of judgery. Folks need to learn to agree to disagree on here, imo!

Bubble99 Fri 29-Aug-08 22:50:57

Some things are just wrong.

If I saw a parent (note that I didn't just say 'mothers') beating or verbally abusing a child - I wouldn't care if they had PND/alcohol issues etc. It is just wrong.

Where it can be difficult though, as far as parenting goes - is from experience.

If I, with just DS1, had seen what DS4 eats/plays with/does etc - I would have been Mrs Judgey Pants.

That's not to say that I have any superior knowledge or experience. Just that my perspective is different.

Elasticwoman Fri 29-Aug-08 22:51:07

It is not a fact that beating children is wrong, it is a judgment. But there's nothing wrong with making that judgment and most people, including the Law, would agree with it.

"Judging" has become a derogatory term on MN, probably confused with prejudice, because that is judging a person before knowing all the facts.

I think it is ok to judge an action rather than a person. EG I believe murder is wrong, but I think Ruth Ellis should have been reprieved.

Elasticwoman Fri 29-Aug-08 22:52:16

Actually I should have said

I think murder is wrong, but I am not competent to judge Ruth Ellis because I don't know all the facts of her case.

We can rarely if ever know all the facts about any case.

Kimi Fri 29-Aug-08 22:54:33

hecate I have had some wonderful advice and some outstanding support here so I guess I have made friends.

Some posters that are a little on the outspoken side have been a massive help to me and I have he up most respect for.

I think sometimes people are just a bit shocked by the bluntness of me grin

edam Fri 29-Aug-08 22:55:00

I think what often gets people riled is self-righteousness. The sort of judging where a SAHM starts a thread saying 'ooh, my neighbours kids are awful, I'm sure it's because she works full time and if ONLY she was prepared to make a few sacrifices she could be a smug git like me'. Or a WOHM says something equally judgemental about SAHMs.

Entirely different from judging that, for instance, in your opinion more than an hour of TV a day is too much for your kids.

Bubble99 Fri 29-Aug-08 22:57:59

Elasticwoman. Is beating children not wrong, then?

Kimi Fri 29-Aug-08 23:01:18

I think we all judge, but I also think that is not a bad thing.
If everyone said everything was ok then we would implode.
Some things are wrong and to say so is not.

If someone said "my neighbour beats their kids for no reason" I would not see that as judging if they said "my single parent black neighbour beats their kids cause they are single and black" I would have a problem with the description but the fact they were beating the kids would still be the same.

FluffyMummy123 Fri 29-Aug-08 23:01:39

Message withdrawn

Kimi Fri 29-Aug-08 23:02:47

Be kind icod I am still trying to sort the frigging visa grin

flyinglizzards Fri 29-Aug-08 23:03:36

kimi - wow 5 years, does the MN addiction last that long? Longer?

Great that you have found it so resourceful TBH.

Kimi Fri 29-Aug-08 23:08:09

I am sad grin
My first post was to ask for advice about DS1 having a fit and the hospital wanting to give him drugs, I was blown away with the time people took to give me advice and to make it all clear to me what was what. Talking to parents who had been where I was was such a help.

Elasticwoman Fri 29-Aug-08 23:08:35

Bubble - of course it is, in my judgment and yours. No matter how many people agree with us, a moral judgment is still just that. A fact is something that has happened.

Just to confuse you further, it may well be a fact that you, Bubble, consider beating children to be wrong.

Bubble99 Fri 29-Aug-08 23:09:01

Beating children is wrong, surely?

Please tell me that nobody thinks it's OK - whether the law agrees or disagrees.

Elasticwoman Fri 29-Aug-08 23:10:30

Some people who beat children (or get them to beat themselves - did you hear about that case in the news this week?) clearly do think it is OK. But they seem to be in the minority in this country.

edam Fri 29-Aug-08 23:12:37

I think that beating children is wrong but elastic is right, it's a judgement rather than an absolute fact. The Victorians would disagree, many people in countries with different cultures would disagree, presumably there are people in this country who would disagree.

handlemecarefully Fri 29-Aug-08 23:12:57

I think the problem is Kimi that as parents we are so often 'judged' by society ..and for such innocuous things half the time(UK society is particularly unforgiving, with an entrenched child intolerant culture), that some of us baulk a bit when we perceive judging on MN... because we've had a skinful of it

snowleopard Fri 29-Aug-08 23:14:08

Kimi, I think you're right. I'm always doing a bit of judging and then getting all defensive about it!

But I think we all judge a great deal, and what bugs me is the way people seem to deny that when they berate another poster for "judging".

But anyway - some of the most popular and well-known posters on MN are pretty damn judgy-pants IMO. You get away with it more if you're completely brazen about it I've noticed. Especially if it's funny.

handlemecarefully Fri 29-Aug-08 23:14:12

But yes obviously beating a child is always wrong (not the best example to illustrate your point perhaps since it is such a no brainer?)

Kimi Fri 29-Aug-08 23:16:25

Thing is I have seen people slated for giving their child a fruit shoot or haribo or a greggs sausage roll, parenting is personal and some of us are going to fuck up..you show me the person here who says they are the perfect parent and I will show you a deluded person.

But when someone is called judging for saying beating/leaving/degrading a child is wrong then something is wrong, very very wrong, and not with the poster who raises the point but with a world that ays it is judging to do so.

I bottled fed my children and I am a stay at home mum, if you want to judge me on those facts get a life, if you ever saw my hitting/dragging.swearing at my children the judge away.
It seems to me that the small stuff is ok, parked in the wrong space....evil
Beat a child ..well must be a reason and so on
We have a wonderful thing here and we are strong, but we need to admit that some things are wrong, and some brave people stand up and say so

Bubble99 Fri 29-Aug-08 23:17:48

Posts X, Elasticwoman.

In the case of beating - does the fact that it is legally and morally wrong make it 'not judging' to condemn beating children?

There are many things that the law of the land prevents that I think are OK.

For example - I find it ridiculous that the law prevents the free use of a drug {marijuana) that, in the worst cases - even with strong bred 'skunk'- renders the user unable to drive fast and liable to fall into a smiley, giggling heap - whilst allowing, taxing and encouraging a drug (alcohol) which causes (a lot of) users to be violent and prone to RTAs.

Both drugs can have have awful effects on people with pre-existing mental health issues - I just don't get why one is criminalised and the other encouraged.

Bubble99 Fri 29-Aug-08 23:23:18

But, edam - we are not living with Victorians (except, perhaps - my mother) and people from other cultures/countries have to abide by the law of this land - so, therefore, it is surely fair to say that beating children is wrong. No exceptions?

Where does it end, otherwise?

Paedophiles will tell you that is morally OK to have a sexual relationship with a child. Do we have to agree?

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