To be frustrated with representative democracy

[StrongLegs]

I'm getting really frustrated with the way things are being run by politicians and I wondered if it is just me?

Things that frustrate me:

• Failure to tax the big corporations like Facebook, Google and Amazon (I realise that this is a global problem).
• House prices that exclude young people from the housing market
• Climate change
• Underfunding of the NHS
• Underfunding of schools
• Erosion of workers right by zero hours contracts and companies like Uber.
• Westminster government ignoring the devolved nations, even during critical negotiations like Brexit and covid.
• Propping up banks when they were being so stupid in the 90s

but not propping up musicians during the covid period.

• I see greed everywhere, and it frustrates me terribly.

I've been voting to change all this kind of stuff for donkeys' years, but it doesn't seem to make any difference. I just wondered if anybody had any thoughts? I'm happy to hear anything at all.

I don't plan to repond to comments as I know this is a huge and complex topic.

I just would be really interested to hear what others think.

YABU - representative democracy is just fine, and I feel that our politicans represent my views
YANBU - I understand your frustrations and agree either completely, or to some extent.

Please give details. I would really like to know what you think.

[chunderwunder]

I'm not sure representative democracy is the problem although FPTP is an issue.

I think it's more that we have a bunch of Tory wankers in government.

[mustlovegin]

Do you understand what democracy is OP?

[mustlovegin]

You have to accept the views of the majority. Tough if they don't agree with your own

[StrongLegs]

Quick clarification:

What I'm asking is - when you vote in elections, do you like choices that you are offered? Or do you feel that you have to choose the least rubbish option and accept that that's the best available.

Yes I understand representative democracy, and yes I am happy to accept the views of the majority.

If you do like how we're being governed, I'll really like to know what you like about it.

[RandomLondoner]

If governments of all parties persistently don't do what you think they should, it might be because what you think is wrong.

Having said that, corporate tax is a difficult issue to tackle, because you have to get the whole world to agree, but it looks like that has just been addressed. (What has been solved is that moving profits to tax-havens will no longer work. I dislike that because it's messy and unfair as only some companies can get away with it. I don't think it's actually a problem if corporate tax rates are low, it would be perfectly reasonable for tax rates to be zero, as long as it was the same for all companies, world-wide. Instead of taxing companies, you can just tax the return to individual shareholders more, and collect the same amount of money that way. That would actually be more logical and consistent than taxing the profits twice, and therefore inconsistently, by both taxing companies and then taxing individuals when they received their share of the returns.)

[WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld]

FPTP is a problem. I would like PR so all groups are represented although God knows who would be there for woman or the wc with the crap that is all our political parties just now

[chunderwunder]

Tbh, I'm not sure what you're saying OP.

Is your point that we elect governments based on their promises that they then fail to deliver?

Is it that you don't like representative democracy and would prefer direct democracy, ie. continual referenda?

Or is it that you don't like democracy at all? What would you prefer? Dictatorship? Sortition? Anarchy?

[Munkustrap]

Real change is painful in the short term. The benefits of some major reforms could take years, if not decades to be realised. But democratic governments think in terms of four to five year election cycles.

Nobody has come up with a better way though.

[StrongLegs]

@chunderwunder - sorry for not being clear. I hadn't thought of it being taken that way.

I'm absolutely in favour of representative democracy.

My question about it has two parts really:

1. In each election, do you like the options that you being asked to vote on? Do ever agonise because you like all the options, or do you agonise because you don't like any of the options? That sort of thing.
   
   If you do like them I'd really like to know why, as it would cheer me up!
   
   
2. What do you think of the structures of government in our society? Currently we vote on:
   
   Westminster government
   Scottish government
   Welsh government
   Mayors in the cities
   county councillors
   city councillors
   Police (people?) I can't remember
   
   Up until recently also the members of the European parliament.
   
   The liberal democrats are also keen on a federal UK, and as PP have mentioned there is the question of FPTP.

[StrongLegs]

I also slightly wonder how much we're being run by the media, rather than by the politicans, since the politicians messages are filtered through the media.

I'd be glad to know what people think of that.

@chunderwunder - your message is really making me chuckle now because it reminds me of Joyce Grenfell saying "Well I think anarchy has a certain attraction in the abstract, and then I wonder 'what would happen about the drains?'"

I always love that line.

[StrongLegs]

And people keep saying the BBC is biased and I keep thinking "is it?" and "how do they know?". In fairness, I almost never watch or read BBC news coverage, so it's not surprising that I don't know.

I'm a bit confused about that tbh.

[StrongLegs]

I saw this blog post about the Evergiven being stuck in the canal, and how the writter was so pleased that we finally have one simple problem that we can understand, and I completely identified with that.

stone-soup.ghost.io/archive/i-like-that-the-boat-is-stuck/

There seems to be so much that we need to understand these days, and it makes my head spin, sometimes literally.

Sorry I didn't mean to talk so much, but here I am again.

[JassyRadlett]

FPTP is one of the worst possible systems in terms of having an actually representative democracy.

In the UK it's compounded by having only one house being elected, so there is no upper house that is actually accountable to the people.

[StrongLegs]

It's interesting to hear so many people mention FPTP. That's one of the few things that I am not currently worked up about. I will read up about it.

[Keepithidden]

A benevolent dictatorship would be ideal. Just not very realistic!

[StrongLegs]

@Keepithidden LOL!

[chunderwunder]

In response to your two further questions...

1. I think very few people read manifestos. They vote based on (perceived) ideology or even just how they/their parents/friends/community have always voted.

1. It is what it is. National and local government are two distinct areas and should definitely be treated separately in terms of voting. I often vote for a different party at local level to how I invariably vote nationally. I'm in a hybrid council so have two sets of councillors to vote for. I don't live in an area with an elected mayor so don't vote on that and I think the role of PCC is pointless. Policing should never have been politicised. I still vote for my preferred PCC though.

I think we should have far better education about how we're governed, how local authorities are funded, what they're responsible for, etc. My job means I'm quite au fait with this but the level of ignorance is shocking. Not that I'm blaming people.

I would also personally have PR. True PR like the list system although I appreciate that this would mean you lose some of the connection with your local MP. It would mean a big shift in attitude.

I would also try to move from an adversarial system with an opposition to a more collaborative approach to government and law-making. I have no problems with an unelected second chamber although I would remove hereditary peers. I think the HofL adds much needed balance and scrutiny.

Anything else?

[sst1234]

In a democracy, you get what most of the turnout voters vote for. And that’s what we have. The silent majority have no major issues with the things that you are annoyed by. The last GE showed this because the alternative was vehemently rejected.

[StrongLegs]

@chunderwunder That's brilliant, thank you.

I do agree about ignorance about who does what. I always have to google to find out which council does lights, or bins or whatever.

I do read manifestos, but frequently find that I don't believe what they say anyway, so end up voting for what I consider to be the spirit of the party, rather then their promises.

Recently some told me I should vote for a given party, and I read their manifesto, and liked it, but didn't dare vote for them in case it was a wasted vote. I suppose this is where FPTP comes in. I really hadn't ever seriously considered PR. I will think about that more.

I completely agree about more education, and less adversarial politics.

I did also join a political party a while ago, but inside their chat forums there was an absolute thicket of weirdness, and I backed out pretty swiftly.

[StrongLegs]

@sst1234 Yes I suppose so. I wondered if someone might be able to tell me what it was that they saw in the Conservatives that they liked so much? It seems to be passing me by. If I knew, I might be able to get on board a bit better.

[BillyShears]

It’s all a shitshow and this government are utter, utter cunts who are more interested in their own personal interests and financial gain than in doing anything to help your avaerage man on the street.

[BillyShears]

Average even.

[Orf1abc]

I can only speak for my area and those that post in the community Facebook groups. Here people vote for what they know, which is high levels of deprivation, low educational attainment, poor health outcomes. They moan about these things constantly, but then vote the same way. It's very frustrating.

The lack of education seems to be a root cause. They take what they read on social media as fact, and no amount of actual facts can override that. A post went round suggesting our grotty little town would be made into a city if the opposition got in, and we wouldn't want that because then there would be more immigrants. So ignorance with a generous spattering of xenophobia. Politicians (and the media) play on people's fear/ hate.

When the boundary changes were being discussed, the majority of people did not seem to understand that we are in x constituency, which has a different name from y council. Pointing out that the MP they thought was theirs, is actually ten miles down the road, did not go down well.

It is a very complex subject, but lack of education is a key factor.

[PurplePi]

OP - Are you Dominic Cummings?

[StrongLegs]

@Orf1abc thanks, that's really interesting.

I really get the strong impression that misinformation and disinfomation is hurting the democratic process. I'm not sure how to fix that though.