DateOfIndeterminateSex

[PosterPerson]

I’ve returned from a first date, still completely unsure of the cis sex of my date.

We met online, the person identified themselves on their bio as a woman. They certainly looked like a woman, and also sounded like a woman the many times we spoke on the phone.

The only doubt came on the day of the actual meeting. There were several markers that I felt might mean my date may have transitioned at some point.

I do not have a problem with people who have transitioned. I would have happily chatted as friends. It’s the doubt I’m unsure of, and I did not ask for fear of causing hurt or awkwardness. If this is the case, I would imagine the person did not mention it because they want to be accepted and live without being barraged with questions at every turn.

In the end, we spent some hours together, had a nice time, swapped thank you texts when we got home. And that is where we are at...

Has this happened to anyone else?

Am I being unreasonable to wish this had been clear to me somehow one way or another?

[DrSbaitso]

What made you think she might have transitioned?

[PosterPerson]

Hair pattern, hands, feet, hips and walk, muscle structure, a different scent that is hard to place that I don’t usually associate with women.

And finally, just a feeling that she was not entirely comfortable on her skin yet.

I know that all of the above can have different explanations. I’m just a little confused and unsure.

[PassionPeach]

DrSbaitso - from male to female, I am assuming. I think OP has a feeling her date was born male but now presents as a woman.

OP - it's not unreasonable at all for you to want to know. Not knowing your sexuality, if someone is presenting as female, but still has male parts and you don't find male's attractive, that may be an issue. I know for some people it isn't, but everyone is different. It's nothing to feel bad about, but I think the longer the subject is left ignored, the more awkward it will be for you and your date. But then it's also a case of if you ask, you might offend them by saying they don't pass. It's a minefield tbh.

[Lubiluxe]

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all and it doesn't make you tma terrible person. We can be accepting of people who have transitioned but I feel it is something that should be discussed openly from the get go.
If I went on a date with a guy and later found out they'd transitioned I'd feel like he'd lied and wouldn't be able to trust.

[PosterPerson]

@PassionPeach, you’ve understood perfectly my dilemma. I’m not sure what to do next, because it doesn’t at the moment look like I can say anything that might not be hurtful in some way.

[RaininSummer]

What a problem. You are walking on eggshells not knowing how to ask without upset. I guess this is the inevitable outcome if people aren't upfront about transitioning.

[JennysWell]

If she is a cis woman would you want to continue to date and have a romantic interest? If the answer to that is no, then you can progress on the basis of only being friends etc regardless of trans status.

[MatildaTheCat]

Is this someone you would like to meet again but probably wouldn’t want to date if they have transitioned? If so that’s entirely ok in my book.

I’ve no idea on the etiquette though. I’m guessing it’s very hard for that person to tell a relative stranger and would be crushing for them to be rejected for that reason. In an ideal world they would have said so already.

Sorry, I’m no help.

[YellowTwinklyStar]

I guess maybe if it goes somewhere and you have "the talk" that would be the time to for her to disclose if she wanted?

[PosterPerson]

This is someone I would be very happy to continue dating if they are cis woman.
I would want to be friends if a transition has occurred. This makes me feel very guilty and unkind.

I’m not sure how these things should be managed or what to say. I am really loathe to hurt her. I can’t imagine how awful that would feel for her.

[DrSbaitso]

Sorry, I got that OP suspects MTF transition, was using the pronouns that this person would prefer, but I understand OP's issue.

OP, if you found out that your instincts were off and this person was indeed born female, would you want to see her again? Either way, even if she is a natal woman, it sounds as though something about her is off-putting to you, and you can decline further dates if you just aren't feeling it for whatever reason. If she is a transitioned transwoman then she is probably aware that she may not have the same appearance and mannerisms as a natal woman.

[PosterPerson]

She’s not off putting at all, I liked her very much and I do enjoy a little androgyny. She is lovely and I would love to explore this further, if only I knew whether this is simply androgyny or MTF transition. The difference somehow seems very important to me.

[NurseButtercup]

hmmmnm this is quite tricky & I understand your dilemma.

I think if you suspect MTF transition and this isn't your preference, I don't think you can ask?

My advice is to pursue a platonic friendship.

[DrSbaitso]

It's fair for it to be important to you. If you're attracted only to women then that's your sexuality.

Maybe see her again and just see how things go? A second date isn't a big commitment. If she has transitioned, she may have a limit on how long she goes before she tells people.

[DoYouRememberTheInnMiranda]

Could you engineer a conversation like "have you ever had a different name?" To give her an opportunity to let you know? That's only helpful if she takes that opportunity, not helpful at all if she says 'no' or tells you about her maiden name or something else irrelevant.
I don't see how you can avoid offending a woman who has not transitioned by asking if she has ever been a man... To be honest if you don't want to date a transwoman, and this woman is making you sufficiently nervous she might be one, I don't see this working either way.

[PosterPerson]

If I pursue a friendship, remaining unsure, not asking any questions, and feelings develop, won’t that make things even more complicated?

[SleepingStandingUp]

I'd also suggest a second date, nothing that's going to lead to "my house or yours" and see if she opens up. She may want to get the feel of the other woman before discussing it but I think if you're unsure after the second date you need to suggest friends or move on.

[Angrypregnantlady]

Although I'm against all the trans bashing on here. I absolutely believe that a person has the right to not want a relationship with a transperson.

I have no idea how you can ask this woman if she was born male.

Maybe send her a funny pic from when you were a kid "oh god, look what my mum's just got out!" And see if she reciprocates?

I'd definitely go with the childhood route though, pictures/stories. You can't just ask someone what genitals they were born with, it's weird and offensive.

[Angrypregnantlady]

Or, I'm presuming you're also a woman. Tell her about when you came out and ask how she came out.

[TeenMinusTests]

Everyone seems concerned with not potentially upsetting a transitioner who is not being open / honest.
I'd be a lot more concerned with not upsetting a born female by implying she might have been misleading you when she hasn't.

[AvocadosBeforeMortgages]

IF she is trans, I imagine she wants to get past the first date and see if there's any chemistry before disclosing her medical history to you.

If she's been living as a woman for some time, and generally "passes", she may not want to broadcast this information to all and sundry on dating apps (who knows might see it?) especially if many in her social circles are unaware of her transition.

If she is trans, she'll almost certainly tell you a few dates in - you don't tend to drop the really heavy info on a first date anyway, no matter who you are.

[Moonmelodies]

You could tell her that you used to be male, and if she responds "yeah me too!" you'll have your answer. Or if she responds "oh cool", or "eww", you can backpedal with "hehe only kidding!".

[ZenNudist]

Hmmm very tricky. I think just chalk this one up to experience and give both the friendship and the relationship a miss.

It sounds like you like them but aren't sure if you fancy them. Contrary to my advice above you could go on a second date and talk about growing up gay give them a chance to open up. I think if you do persue a relationship/ friendship keep your guard up until you have a better idea. If they continue to pose as a gay woman and that isn't the case then you wouldn't need to feel guilty if you did walk away.

[PosterPerson]

@TeenMinusTests

Everyone seems concerned with not potentially upsetting a transitioner who is not being open / honest.
I'd be a lot more concerned with not upsetting a born female by implying she might have been misleading you when she hasn't.

I actually thought that it’s probably more upsetting to be asked if trans when you’re actually not. I would been more likely to have brought this up if there had been no uncertainty. A trans person might reasonably be expecting to have that conversation one day.

[PosterPerson]

...Obviously they may not expect such questions the first days, which is why I have said nothing so far. It seemed maybe intrusive somehow. Especially if the question is being asked with an intention to exclude from something.