AIBU to think this is human trafficking?

[OhHolyJesus]

Following the Ukraine babies being stranded in a Kiev Hotel (being cared for by "professional babysitters" during the lockdown as the parents can't get to them), I've been following media coverage...

As France bans all surrogacy I thought this was interesting.

www.france24.com/en/20200618-ukraine-s-covid-19-lockdown-leads-to-baby-pile-up-and-surrogacy-backlash

"She described the parent-surrogate relationship as one of "mutual need", a simple transaction between a woman who needs money and a couple desperate to become parents."

If this is a transaction how is this not buying a baby?

[SadSisters]

I agree, non-altruistic surrogacy makes me incredibly uncomfortable and I don’t think it should be allowed. I feel so sorry for those poor babies in Ukraine.

[LumaLou]

I agree too, it’s selling babies. A very exploitative ‘industry’.

[justanotherneighinparadise]

Well it is buying a baby isn’t it. We all know it. It’s just another commodity.

This really is the new adoption crisis isn’t it? Whereby babies used to be dragged from new young/unmarried mother’s arms and placed into the arms of the older, often religious new families. Now we have the manufacturing of babies. Still pulled out the arms of young mothers, but now in return for money. We have generations of children who will have no idea of their genetic history, merely formulated from a random persons egg and a random person’s sperm. They’ll be no emotive meet ups in the future where an emotional story is relaid and a line up of new family members appear to embrace. It’s horribly fucked up.

I even had a terrible thought when this story first broke of how easy it is now is for these babies to be made to end up in pedophile rings. What checks are there of these children as they grow? Is it a case of bye bye and fingers crossed or are these surrogacy agencies keeping a check on these children over a longer time period?

[ExtremelyBoldSquirrels]

I agree. I don’t really understand how anyone could view commercial surrogacy as anything other than human trafficking.

I totally sympathise with people who are unable to have children, but I’m not convinced that buying a baby is at all a reasonable course of action.

[OhHolyJesus]

how easy it is now is for these babies to be made to end up in pedophile rings

Pretty easy I imagine. Baby Pipah in Australia has a convicted paedophile for a father. He has parental rights as it was his sperm so it would be a big legal battle to challenge that and remove her. She does have weekly lessons as I understand it to explain why she can't be left alone with him.

In my research on this I've been made aware that there are no background checks done on commissioning parents by Surrogacy agents in the U.K. but Surrogate Mothers have to go through quite a few hoops, inc counselling and background checks. I don't understand why, if the baby is going elsewhere, why the same checks wouldn't be done on the parents.

Why aren't the same rules for adoption applied?

[Ylvamoon]

It's babies made to order... absolutely disgusting!
Life should be previous and celebrated, instead you can just go out and buy it. And if baby had a disability like Bridget, you just refuse to take the child. (And let your child rot in some 3rd world institution.)
No amount of heartache for a child can justify this!

[OhHolyJesus]

I'm confused as to how this has gone so far though - it's modern day slavery, when we are talking about the value of life with Black Lives Matter and the history of the slave trade juxtapose this with the women in the Ukraine (and Georgia and the US) and how you can't buy organs and body parts - how is this legal?

I'm pleased it's getting so much attention but this is ripe for an anti-surrogacy campaign or something to expose what is happening.

I know about the Stop Surrogacy Now campaign but I really think we need something in the U.K.

[FannyCann]

I’m disgusted that anyone would think this is OK. I won’t be polite if I ever meet anyone who has obtained a baby this way.




www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/the-stranded-babies-of-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

[FannyCann]

We have generations of children who will have no idea of their genetic history, merely formulated from a random persons egg and a random person’s sperm. They’ll be no emotive meet ups in the future where an emotional story is relaid and a line up of new family members appear to embrace. It’s horribly fucked up.

There’s no hope of these children tracing their origins.

“Albert Tochilovsky, the owner of BioTexCom, does not deny there were mix-ups with embryos during surrogacy procedures in 2011 that led to the human trafficking investigation.“
He blames the error on a lack of experience when the clinic was only a year old, and says: “I don’t think it was only us who used to make mistakes here. If someone starts checking DNA, there will be a lot of scandals.”

[DeeCeeCherry]

justanotherneighinparadise

Accurate - & so frightening

[5wandh]

It’s an interesting thought and not one without any merit. My question is, where do you draw the line as to what is and what isn’t considered human trafficking?

Is the exchanging of money the reason one believes it to be human trafficking? If human trafficking in relation to surrogacy is about money in exchange for a baby then does it make it ok if a woman does so for free? Is it seen as human trafficking regardless of money or consent as it’s about the baby being trafficked? If so, are both the receiver and surrogate guilty of human trafficking? Is sperm and egg donation also human trafficking whether it be with or without a surrogate?

It also comes down to rights. Does a women have the right to do whatever she wishes with her own body regardless of the consequences to the potential child? Does she have the right to consent to surrogacy or is it always seen as exploitation, especially if money is involved? Do you believe in gay and lesbian rights and if so does this discriminate against them as surrogacy and donation is mainly the only way they can have a biological child? Does their potential rights out way any rights the child may have? If an unborn baby has no or little rights can surrogacy then even be outlawed? Would it only be a crime once the baby is born and handed over? Should unborn babies then have rights? The problem with rights in general is that the more rights you believe a person should have, someone else is possibly going to suffer because of them.

I do support a reforming of surrogacy and donations if it does not get made illegal.

I am surprised though that you believe what you do yet see Black Lives Matter as not a part of this issue. You should look into what the movement stands for as a whole. They are very vocal surrounding support for gay rights and for many that involves the right to a biological child so they very well may see differently to you surrounding surrogacy and the value of life due to this.

On a related note, look into ‘rehoming’ regarding failed adoptions, it’s a breeding ground for human trafficking of children sadly.

[SocialConnection]

This article describes some of those baby-buyers as single men 'of a certain orientation.'

Whatever that means.

www.rt.com/news/488634-ukraine-surrogate-babies-stranded/

[SnuggyBuggy]

It's a hideous practice, those poor babies.

[Nottherealslimshady]

God it never occurred to me there wouldn't be strict checks. The idea of a paedophile being able to buy a newborn baby is repulsive

[FannyCann]

@Nottherealslimshady I'm afraid there have been some shocking cases, and probably the ones that are known about are just the tip of the iceberg


www.federalcircuitcourt.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/bff837bb-f619-4510-9807-9dfe2fe88422/International+Commercial+Surrogacy+and+the+risk+of+abuse.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-bff837bb-f619-4510-9807-9dfe2fe88422-lpYcMc7

Not sure if that link will work, it's from a report of the Australian Federal Court, it seems to mangle when I try to copy the link.

Anyway here's the opening paragraph.

[FannyCann]

And this article cites a single deaf man living in his parents basement who somehow obtained triplets....

mercatornet.com/use-and-abuse-the-exploitative-reality-of-surrogacy-and-egg-donation/24920/

And yet our very own Law Commissoners talk about a "light touch" with respect to oversight of baby buyers "intended parents".

[FannyCann]

Do you believe in gay and lesbian rights and if so does this discriminate against them as surrogacy and donation is mainly the only way they can have a biological child?

With respect to gay men, I have just read "Surrogacy - A Human Rights Violation " by Renate Klein. (I recommend it btw, very readable and informative style, not overlong).

In it Renate states "Women are not exploited and commodified as surrogates by 'gay' or 'heterosexual' males: they are exploited by men".
^
(^Also some women).

I think that is worth remembering.

Gay men talk about their right to "reproductive equality" - but biology is exclusionary. Their supposed "rights" can only be achieved by the exploitation and potential for harm to
1: The woman "donating" the egg

1. The woman gestating the baby
2. The baby that has no say in being bought

How can any of that be a human right?

[Nottherealslimshady]

@FannyCann Jesus it's awful! I do think there should be more protection when someone has a baby too though. So many children brought into the world only to be abused. Horrible.

[MondayYogurt]

That Baby Gammy story has broken me this morning. I just...words fail me.

[ExtremelyBoldSquirrels]

I am in no way convinced that there is a basic human right to a child (biological or otherwise).

[FannyCann]

I am in no way convinced that there is a basic human right to a child (biological or otherwise).

There isn't!

And I get so fed up at the total absence of any consideration of the rights of the child....

When does a child become old enough to have rights? You can't sell a ten year old. I don't think you can sell a two year old. Why is it ok to sell a baby?

[Ylvamoon]

Do you believe in gay and lesbian rights and if so does this discriminate against them as surrogacy and donation is mainly the only way they can have a biological child?

Actually in very simple terms, yes I believe in gay & lesbian rights. It comes under the mantra "Live and let live"
BUT
It doesn't give anyone the right to buy a baby. Biology has made us the way we are
you need male & female to reproduce.
That's something we all need to accept, even metrosexual couples who can't have children.

I think @FannyCann's quote is right, it's (gay) men who usually exploit women. The countries that offer surrogacy, are male oriented societies, with a very poor population, women are often seen as 2nd class citizens... when it comes to having a baby, human rights and progress is thrown out of the window.


(Today 09:42FannyCann - could not read past the first paragraph )

[ExtremelyBoldSquirrels]

I actually think there’s something really dubious about attempts to turn discussions about surrogacy into questions of LGBT rights or discrimination. It definitely feels like a move to try to make the ethics of buying babies undiscussable. I’m not sure that’s always entirely accidental.

No one, in any identity category you might wish to dream up, has any automatic right to a biological child.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

While you are right to have concerns about no altruistic surrogacy, technically it is not human trafficking.

In human trafficking, the person trafficked is sold as a slave and the purpose of buying them is to physically force them to work or do sex work in terrible conditions that often end in their murder. In surrogacy, the person involved is adopted as a full family member.

So it’s not human trafficking.

[Ylvamoon]

In surrogacy, the person involved is adopted

The adoption is secondary, because the law in the destanation country in regards to parental rights. For these babies to be adopted, they need to be SOLD in the first place.
I think it's human trafficking, it's buying a human being for whatever purpose... they are taken from their country of birth without their consent or consideration for their future and welfare. The babies have nobody who speaks up for them.
There is no Paramountcy Principle involved in the transaction.