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To think that Tony Blair....

(42 Posts)
Abstractedobstructed Sat 19-Oct-19 19:27:23

...can have been wrong about Iraq and still have a valid opinion on Brexit?

I posted Blair's short video about the outstanding difficulties with the Johnson agreement on my FB today and get a load of 'but he took us to war'..." Warmonger, war criminal" type stuff. To be honest I find that kind of polarised blinkered thinking a) frustrating b) immature and c) indefensible.

Surely one can disagree with a person's judgement vehemently on one issue; it does not therefore automatically follow that that person is automatically incorrect on every other subject.
I have always found Tony Blair extremely clear and clear-sighted on why Brexit is so very difficult (nigh impossible) to achieve. It was listening to him on R4 a couple of years ago that clarified the Irish border issue for me when the leaders during the referendum barely mentioned it.

Here's his video btw; been somewhat overtaken by events since.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1185213562270208001

Ponoka7 Mon 21-Oct-19 09:16:42

There was such big feelings of hope when TB came into power. I live in Liverpool and it meant a rebirth for the city.

However, he let us down.

Not just with the Iraq war (which is a complex subject), but because the free moment could have been curtailed.

The feelings around economic migration has fueled Brexit, for many. But it did have negative consequences for many people, especially in the North, where unemployment is high.

There's a few issues that he let us down over. But then new Labour didn't profess to serve the Northern WC in the way old Labour did and obviously life was better under a Labour government.

OnlyFoolsnMothers Mon 21-Oct-19 08:32:37

Blair is scum and should be hiding under a rock- there are enough remainers in the public eye to quote and agree with can we leave this one alone!

broomzoom Mon 21-Oct-19 08:29:48

Whilst I agree that you can agree with some people's opinions on some matters & not others the issue with Tony Blair is that he is seen as a liar & corrupt. People don't like the fact he's so wealthy, that his family have such a huge property portfolio etc. personally I don't like him & don't think he helps the cause

Hesafriendfromwork Mon 21-Oct-19 08:11:14

I'm not any sort of expert in the politics of NI or the ROI but I do think it's safe to say the GFA was a success and improved lives in NI. Not made them perfect but certainly improved them.

Where in NI do you live?

Nippybutsweet Mon 21-Oct-19 08:09:20

@theduchessstill

"But I do know that life is absolutely not the same for the average people in Britain under Tories as it is under Labour."

Totally agree, yes.

I voted SNP last time because I want independence from the Westminster shit show, but to be honest I don't align myself with any political party as identity politics is not something I can get on board with.

ForalltheSaints Mon 21-Oct-19 08:04:11

He can have a valid point about Brexit.

He will still be the most hated former Prime Minister ever, at least until Mr Johnson is out of office.

theduchessstill Mon 21-Oct-19 07:32:43

I'm not any sort of expert in the politics of NI or the ROI but I do think it's safe to say the GFA was a success and improved lives in NI. Not made them perfect but certainly improved them.

Nippy, by your argument all politicians are as bad as each other, all are corrupt so what's the point in anything. No I haven't read the books you have and i don't know how credible the authors are. But I do know that life is absolutely not the same for the average people in Britain under Tories as it is under Labour, including when Blair was in power. To claim otherwise is just wrong. Who do you vote for btw?

He's not perfect but he did a lot of good (again, what have you read about NI because there's plenty out there about other people's involvement, not just MM, including from the Tories who started it moving tbf), and he is bang on about Brexit. None of what you said changes that.

Nippybutsweet Sun 20-Oct-19 21:03:16

@Hesafriendfromwork

And, perhaps a Tory government would have done the same. That changes nothing.

Totally agree, after all what former Tory prime ministers husband works for Capital Group - a company thats the largest and second largest shareholder in BAE and Lockheed Martin, and coincidentally enough when the first missile strikes were launched on Syria in 2018, saw their shares skyrocket.

As said before they are all corrupt, regardless of what party they align with.

Why the hell would anyone trust them is beyond me.

I say Smedly Butler has a point that's still valid today.

@Patroclus i suggest you google him, his book is excellent too wink

Patroclus Sun 20-Oct-19 20:55:42

What book was this in BTW?

Patroclus Sun 20-Oct-19 20:55:23

well since you were evidently talking bollocks about it, maybe I wont.

Nippybutsweet Sun 20-Oct-19 20:45:53

@Patroclus
No I tend to engage my brain and read books - I highly recommend it grin

Hesafriendfromwork Sun 20-Oct-19 20:41:32

Tony blair didnt really improve much for people in northern ireland. Not sure why that's seen as a success.

I also imagine that plenty of people didnt have relative killed in the war, he lied about to join.

I am from Derry and lost a brother.

And, perhaps a Tory government would have done the same. That changes nothing.

CloudPop Sun 20-Oct-19 20:36:03

So do we think that if the Tory opposition has been in government in what were very charged times post 9/11, that they would have refused to do the usual British thing of doing exactly what they are told by the US president ?

Patroclus Sun 20-Oct-19 20:22:51

And seemingly Cherie Blair's firm was not around 'at the time'. They started working for the Albanian government (ater droppin a US company) in.....2014.

horse4course Sun 20-Oct-19 20:22:22

I've never got the whole Blair liar thing. If you knew there were no WMDs why would you say there were, knowing none would be found?

Error of judgment, horrendous neoliberal values allowing companies to profiteer from the war etc - but I think he believed the threat was genuine.

And he's been bang on about brexit and a million times better at communicating than Corbyn.

Patroclus Sun 20-Oct-19 20:19:46

It would seem you yourself have just typed 'blair kosovo' into google.

Patroclus Sun 20-Oct-19 20:17:33

I know cos I used to live in the area during the 90s...

Nippybutsweet Sun 20-Oct-19 18:42:41

Ok, Kosovo was a triumph for Blair, everyone agreed on that? Excellent, so everyone will know because we are all very well informed and don't just take the 1st articles Google throws up and instead we all do our own research and find out that Cherie Blair was at the time the founder and chairman at the Omnia Strategy Company, the same company that the government of Kosovo awarded a €500,000 advisory contract after the war.

How many contracts were secrured by britain to rebuild Kosovo?

Yeah, he went to Kosovo beacause he cared, not because of any type of personal gain.

Politicians are corrupt beyond belief.

It was Mo Mowlam that put her blood, sweat and tears into signing the Good Friday Agreement, but again a man will have no issues taking credit for the effort and successes of a woman.

Passthecherrycoke Sun 20-Oct-19 17:57:00

“..also, Blair intervened in Kosovo not long before and saved millions of Muslims from ethnic cleansing; it's not as easy as saying "Blair bad man". I gather in Kosovo he is regarded as a war hero.”

This and the good Friday agreement are strong memories of mine from the Blair years. I’ll be honest and say I’ve never disliked him. Lots of mistakes in Iraq. However he certainly didn’t do it alone and a lot of the situation would’ve happened with or without his support (not the loss of British military life, admittedly)

Patroclus Sun 20-Oct-19 17:54:50

And many people didnt seem too bothered when they voted him back in in 2005

Patroclus Sun 20-Oct-19 17:52:59

I was just saying this to somebody else, in Kosovo/Albania there are kids called 'Tonibler' after him. I honestly think he thought the Iraq war was an extension of the good he did with Kosovo and badly, badly misjudged it. This was also after we saw the slaughter that can be caused by the internationl community sitting with its thumb up its arse doing (worse than) nothing in bosnia for years. His government was largely a success, id give a lot to go back to it.

Abstractedobstructed Sun 20-Oct-19 10:10:59

I agree with shastabeast
It's not like Iraq was a peaceful county minding its own business. Saddam Hussein was committing genocide within his own country. He was using chemical weapons against his own people; not military people - women and children.

I never quite understand the entire lack of acknowledgement of this from the side that just seems Blair as a murdering war criminal. I understand that the official basis for war - the threat of weapons of mass destruction - was shown to be false. I understand the repercussions have rippled through the Middle East and to the UK but that alone didn't cause Isis or the Manchester bombingd - Al Quaeda were already doing very nicely and had already killed over 2000 Americans in 2001 (without which Iraq war would probably never have happened).

When does the world stand by as a country kills its own citizens? We are roundly ashamed for not having intervened, anyone, in Rwanda.
We intervened in Kosovo and Blair became a war hero to the people who were saved.
We intervened in Iraq and Blair can never be anything but poison on any subject ever again?

theduchessstill Sun 20-Oct-19 07:23:55

Completely agree OP. I follow Alastair Campbell on Twitter and whatever he posts a few comments down someone will post 'what about David Kelly" or something about 45 minutes. It's pathetic and certainly doesn't make them look clever as they obviously think.

I know Blair made a huge error on Iraq and some people can't forget or forgive that,which i get. But there are also a lot of people on the left who can't forgive him for being so successful and from the centre of the party. Those people are actually glad to have a reason to vilify him and will spend more time banging on about how awful he is than the Tories. Corbyn was a bit like that when he first became leader and I know many the same. They don't want power but to rant from the sidelines and they are part of the reason we will probably be stuck with the Tories for a long time yet.

Blair achieved a huge amount and overall made the country a better, fairer and more hopeful place to live, as anyone there at the time will remember, and Mo Mowlam certainly didn't negotiate the GFA on her own. He makes perfect sense on Brexit but people aren't interested in sense, especially if it comes from someone they've already got it in for. Johnson is loved by many despite his whole life being one long lie. I think we'll get what we deserve, sadly.

ShastaBeast Sun 20-Oct-19 06:20:45

Is the Iraq war really that black and white? I remember having mixed feelings at the time. Saddam was committing atrocities against his own people, much the same as Assad is today in Syria. I feel very uncomfortable standing by while thousands more are slaughtered and displaced. There’s no easy answer and painting Blair as evil is naively simplistic. Muslims are far more likely to have been killed by other Muslims than by the West. Islamic terrorists just seized the opportunity and twisted the narrative to suit their own agenda.

Kyvia Sun 20-Oct-19 06:13:13

I think everyone is entitled to their own valid onions smile

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