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Employed by my friend as her nanny.

(108 Posts)
Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 20:45:32

My best friend, Let’s call her C, has recently employed me as her nanny. I previously worked in a nursery and was very unhappy. I was a nanny years ago and absolutely loved it so when I was offered the job I really wanted to accept it, however as we were best friends I was hesitant.

I was really worried about it affecting our friendship as money conversations are always really awkward so I didn’t accept the job straight away, but after being persuaded by C I accepted the job. In order to stop any future issues arising we made sure a proper contract was drawn up and signed, plus we spoke about everything including money, duties, holidays etc just to make sure we were both on the same page. Everything is above board and all tax and NI contributions are sorted (before anyone asks).

C and her husband have both just started new jobs. C doesn’t like nursery environments hence why she decided to employ a nanny instead, plus with three children it actually works out cheaper. I’m OFSTED registered so C also receives help towards the costs just as she would in a nursery setting.

Anyway, (bare with me, this is relevant) I am contracted to work 28hrs per week over 3 days between Monday-Friday. C works 3 days a week on a shift basis and her husband works FT Monday-Friday.
C gets her rota from work two weeks in advance and then let’s me know what days she needs me to work. I normally work my three full days however if C is working on a weekend then I only work two days as dad is home on the weekends. (This is their choice, I have always offered to work my three full days so C can have her day off to herself or do as she pleases however she wants to spend time with the kids which is fair enough).

I am always paid for 28hrs regardless of wether I work them or not and we agreed not to bank hours as I felt it would only benefit the parents and not myself (learnt from past experiences).

C understands that once she has confirmed which days she needs me to work each week then I am free to do as I please on my days off including taking work from other families. I have explained I am happy to work extra days if I have no other plans but that it would need to be paid as extra. This issue arose as two weeks ago she wanted me to work four days at the same rate of pay, i.e split 28hrs over four days instead. I did not agree to it and it was left at that.

I am really enjoying the job and I love the kids however a couple of issues have started to appear which is making me wonder wether this arrangement is going to work or not. Here they are -

1. The night before I was due to start work, C explained her starting date for her job had been pushed back and I did not need to start work until three days later. I was under the impression I would still be paid for the full 28hrs regardless as per the contract however I was only paid for the work I did at the end of the week. I was upset about this and explained to C that I felt it was unfair of her to cut my hours that week as it wasn’t my fault her start date was pushed back and that I was ready and willing to work. She did apologise however never rectified the payment. I decided to let it go but It made me feel uneasy. Since then C has agreed to pay me for the full hours regardless of wether I work them or not.

2. After my first week, C explained to me that she was still going to submit the child care claim stating I had worked 28hrs that week. When I spoke to her about it and said I didn’t realise she was going to pay me for the full hours that week (as stated above) she explained she wasn’t. In fact, C wanted to claim the full 28hrs from UC, put it through payroll as that but then have me transfer £70 back to her account. I told her I wasn’t prepared to do that, as I would then pay more tax and NI on money I hadn’t actually earned. She seemed disappointed by it but we haven’t spoken about it since. I have to admit, it has made me feel quite angry as she obviously knew I would pay extra tax on money she would then pocket. I also said that the registration number (which I pay for every year) isn’t a way for parents to make extra money, it’s there for them to get help towards the costs to pay the child care provider.

3. C keeps asking me to work extra hours at very short notice. For example - I popped over there today for a cuppa and a chat. I had pretty much spent the whole day with her and as I was about to leave she said “oh are you okay to work a few hours tomorrow by the way?”. I explained to C I had already made plans with another friend so couldn’t. C understood but I think she was disappointed and it did feel very awkward afterwards. I was confused as to why she was asking me to work an extra day as we had already agreed that I would only work three days a week as per the contract and if she wanted me to work an extra day she would need to pay it as extra time worked. C did not say she would pay the extra. As I am already booked to work Wednesday-Friday this week I wasn’t happy to work four days for the same rate of pay (as already explained) so declined. If C had maybe said “oh you can have Friday off instead if you want”, I may have agreed and possibly cancelled my plans, but she didn’t.

4. With the above example, I feel I cannot plan my life. It has happened around three times now and it is making me feel uncomfortable. I feel C thinks I am being awkward but she does not pay me to be on call therefor I don’t think I should be. She is my best friend and I love her but, I want our friendship and the work side to be kept separate (if possible). It is getting to the point where I don’t even want to pop around there on my day off anymore as I know the conversation will defer to work chat and that she may even possibly ask me to work on my day off.

I think C wants our work arrangement to be more relaxed, flexible etc than most work places which I do too but to an extent. I appreciate, in any job there is give and take and I would always be there for her and help her out if she needed me, but I have a life too.

I thought that drawing up the contract and chatting about everything beforehand would have prevented any of these issues arising, but there seems to be a new problem every week. As I say, I love the job and am so happy I’m finally in a role I enjoy but if I have to choose between our friendship and the job then our friendship will always come first. She means too much to me to fall out over something like this. I would rather find a new job and keep our friendship, but if we can make it work where both of us are happy then of course I would prefer that instead.

I was thinking about asking her for a chat and explaining all of these issues, but I just wanted to see if I was being unreasonable first. Am I? Do I need to be more flexible?

Can this arrangement between two friends actually work?

If anyone has any advice I would be really grateful! Thanks

FabLaura Mon 14-Oct-19 21:17:39

YANBU. You both set the scene with a contract before work started and it sounds like this worked for you both. I would therefore approach this problem in the same manner as it should work for you both now. Let her know you would like the opportunity to chat through the first couple of weeks in a sort of review and mention it then.
I would say you need to nip this in the butt quick because you are an experienced professional which she knows and responded to appropriately at the beginning but is starting to slide into behaving as if you are a friend offering childminder services cause you have no other option

midnightmisssuki Mon 14-Oct-19 21:25:13

I did this - it lasted a year. Like you my nanny came from a nursery.

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 21:28:36

Thanks for your reply FabLaura!
Yes I do feel that it started off quite professional so to speak but has now started to become more of a “friendly arrangement” and very relaxed which I really don’t want it to be!

I’m happy to be flexible to an extent and I think maybe we need to talk over what both of our expectations are. smile

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 21:31:07

Was the nanny also your friend midnightmisssuki? Can I ask why the arrangement didn’t work? (Feel free to tell to get lost grin)

Elieza Mon 14-Oct-19 21:31:20

Yup, time to chat. You are probably both feeling a bit upset about everything not being as good as it used to be. Clear the air and clarify notice periods for extra working.

Excited101 Mon 14-Oct-19 21:32:44

If I’m honest, I think working for a friend (or family member) is a terrible idea, and only going to go one way... sorry

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 21:37:08

No need to be sorry Excited101 smile. I am starting to think this too unfortunately which is really disappointing as I was so excited to work for her.

I don’t want to completely write it off though as I love her kids.

I think I’ll have a chat about all of these issues, see if the situation improves and go from there.

itsboiledeggsagain Mon 14-Oct-19 21:41:05

we have a nanny who is our friend and she has always been very flexible, (although situation not the same as she has been self employed as she does other work too)

she has never charged us for cancelled work, and we have always paid her for the hours she works however many she does - eg if we are stuck on a closed motorway.

I think with these things it always boils down to everyone feeling that they are not being unequally treated. we started off very professional as we didnt really know each other, and then got more informal as time went on. but I feel that we have good groundrules.

weve always offered to pay cancelled days etc (not that there are many) but she has never accepted

Hellabove5 Mon 14-Oct-19 21:41:07

No advice but as a nanny you cannot accept any of the free funding hours like a nursery, even if you are OFSTED registered. You can however accept childcare vouchers and tax free childcare.

Hope you sort it out!

CatsOnCatnip Mon 14-Oct-19 21:44:04

Sounds like you’ve done everything above board and made sure things are in place, YANBU to reiterate what has already been discussed.

But, having employed friends (not that I asked them to do more hours or anything your friend is asking) in my experience it has made things difficult as times. I felt I wasn’t comfortable discussing things I wasn’t happy with the same way you feel in this situation. So in my experience, it can work, but it can be extra awkward, especially if you’re a bit of a people pleaser overall.

Witchinaditch Mon 14-Oct-19 21:48:06

I think if you work for a friend you have to be prepared to be totally flexible otherwise it’s just not going to work, if you don’t want to work like that then I would suggest a new nannying job.

NoNoOk Mon 14-Oct-19 22:03:20

Has your friend employed a nanny before?

If not, she is going to think all the 'downsides' to employing a nanny are down to you not being flexible.

If she has employed one before, then she is taking you for a ride as any nanny employer knows this isn't how it works.

She should always be paying you for cancelled hours. You have a contract. This is not doing you a favour!

CallieCat19 Mon 14-Oct-19 22:04:23

I think you’re being a little unreasonable about the hours, I wouldn’t expect to pay someone for hours they hadn’t worked. For example with the 4 days instead of 3, if you normally work 7 hours a day but that was split to 3.5 hours with an additional day I wouldn’t expect to pay more because your still working the same amount of hours? Idk that might just be me though!

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 22:17:37

It is her first time employing a nanny NoNoOk and I think this is where things may be going wrong. Having been a nanny years ago I did explain to her how things usually work and again having drawn up the contract and talked over everything beforehand I thought we had squashed any potential issues but I guess not.

CallieCat19 - sorry, maybe I didn’t explain it properly in my op. When she offered me the job she stated it would be over three days a week as that’s what she works and I am basically following her shift pattern. I appreciate it may look like I’m expecting her to pay me for hours I haven’t worked but if we hadn’t of agreed on contracted hours then that would potentially leave me open to not being paid for anything.
What do you think would happen if she just decided to take the day off work? I would then not be paid for it and potentially have no money to pay my own bills.

Of course I would never expect to be paid if I was off ill or couldn’t attend work for some reason but If they decide not to use me for the full hours I think that’s their choice and I shouldn’t have to suffer because of it.

I think my issue is that we agreed I would work three days a week which was documented in the contract and she is now trying to change that without having the proper discussion with me first, and also expecting it for the same rate of pay.

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 22:21:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Playingforkeeps Mon 14-Oct-19 22:24:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maddening Mon 14-Oct-19 22:25:32

She is on to a good thing being that she needs flexible childcare where her days change, she would not find a childminder or nursery that would and I am sure that most nannies would want set days if not full time.

TakeMe2Insanity Mon 14-Oct-19 22:26:23

I think you can either survive as the nanny or the best friend. I think something has to give. It may have been ideal but it is naïve to assume you can remain in both positions.

Butchyrestingface Mon 14-Oct-19 22:26:40

She is my best friend and I love her but, I want our friendship and the work side to be kept separate (if possible).

Oh dear. I hope you can get something sorted OP, otherwise the friendship as well as the job may suffer.

Ginseng1 Mon 14-Oct-19 22:27:42

Are you expecting to be paid more per hour if you work over the contracted 28 hrs & is this partly why you wouldn't work the extra hours This I don't understand?

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 22:32:59

Ginseng1 no the hourly rate is the same even if I work over the contracted hours.

I don’t think she wants to pay more than the contracted hours that’s why she keeps asking me to split the 28hrs over four days, so she technically gets an extra day but for the same price. If that makes sense?

I would be happy to work extra hrs and be more flexible but I want to be paid for it.

DelphiniumBlue Mon 14-Oct-19 22:37:22

You raise a good point- what happens if You are ill? Any employee should get sick pay and holiday pay and pension. It sounds as if you don't get that.
I think it is very hard working for a friend and it is almost inevitable that the friendship will suffer. The balance of power shifts, she will feel she has a right to comment on your decisions. I knew someone who employed a friend, who actually thought she could veto whether or not the employee could ttc!

shoebedobedobedobedoo Mon 14-Oct-19 22:43:16

I don’t think this will work OP. We had a nanny for 5 years. We knew her from our social circle to begin with (which should have been a red flag), and I honestly don’t know if she was ever a real friend or not. She was contracted for 30 hours over 3 set days. If she worked a 4th day she got the additional hourly pay for the hours she worked on day 4, even if she only actually worked 1 or 2 days that week. She got paid for every second of over time she did plus countless hours of time she didn’t actually work as she was always late but got paid from her start time regardless of the time she actually showed up. Because we moved in the same social circle I didn’t want to rock the boat of be seen as a difficult/tight/mean employer. By the end she totally took the piss, IMHO. If you end this now you can probably salvage the friendship.

shoebedobedobedobedoo Mon 14-Oct-19 22:45:50

Any employee should get sick pay and holiday pay and pension and you should def be getting this. Ours did. She didn’t even let us pay overtime in cash, it all had to go through the books. Makes me mad just thinking about it.

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 22:48:33

DelphiniumBlue, I receive sick pay if I provide a fit note after 7 days. Holidays are 50/50 between us and pension is all sorted through payroll.

In regards to your friends employer, that is absolutely bonkers! Glad to say I really don't think my friend would ever do anything like that grin

TatianaLarina Mon 14-Oct-19 22:51:54

This was a terrible idea, I don’t know why you two were naive enough to think it would work.

Don’t mix business and pleasure as they say.

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 22:53:01

shoebedobedobedobedoo - sorry to hear you had such a shit time with your nanny. Some people really do take the mick.

I do realise it's give and take. I just feel at the moment she's taking more than she's actually giving so to speak.

Luckily I never had these issues with my past nanny employers as I wasn't afraid to speak up if something was bothering me, however when it's a friend it just makes it so much more awkward.

Maybe I need to be more flexible though, it really is a learning curve for the both of us I think.

Gwenhwyfar Mon 14-Oct-19 22:54:42

"She didn’t even let us pay overtime in cash, it all had to go through the books. Makes me mad just thinking about it."

Paying tax made you mad?

LisaSimpsonsbff Mon 14-Oct-19 22:56:10

She is on to a good thing being that she needs flexible childcare where her days change, she would not find a childminder or nursery that would and I am sure that most nannies would want set days if not full time.

I was thinking this too. If you two decided to end your arrangement then you'd almost certainly pick up other nannying work, but she'd find it really hard to find someone else who would agree to this. That tells us something about how fair the arrangement is.

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 23:02:25

TatianaLarina, I don't know really. Like I said before, maybe because we talked everything over beforehand, had a contract signed. I thought we both knew what was expected of each other but as time has gone on small issues have kept cropping up.

She doesn't like nursery environments because children can't have 1-1 care (I think I would be the same personally if I had children myself) that's why she chose a nanny. Also because she knows me and trusts me she wanted me as her nanny and not some stranger off the internet.

shiningstar2 Mon 14-Oct-19 23:03:29

It seems that her shift work requires a lot of flexibility regarding which days are worked. Fair enough ...you knew that when you accepted the job. However, from your point of view no-one wants to be paid 3 days work yet have to be available 6 days a week. I think she should be able to ask you to work 3 days a week when she knows her shift pattern, regardless of whether her husband is available or not. However I don't think she can expect to give 2 some weeks and 'bank' the rest which leaves you unable to accept other work.

NeedAnExpert Mon 14-Oct-19 23:04:58

nip this in the butt

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

LisaSimpsonsbff Mon 14-Oct-19 23:05:44

She doesn't like nursery environments because children can't have 1-1 care (I think I would be the same personally if I had children myself) that's why she chose a nanny.

Yeah, and because she'd never, ever have found a nursery that would have let her book different days every week and then frequently change them like she does with you.

AnneElliott Mon 14-Oct-19 23:07:06

YANBU op. I'm shocked that she wanted to try and defraud on the childcare payment! What sort of person does that, irrespective of the financial impact on you - which was incredibly cheeky of her.

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 23:09:45

Yes your right shiningstar2, I knew there would be a certain degree of flexibility needed and I'm fine with that. I never book any work with other families until I have confirmed with her what days I'm needed that week. In all fairness, she understands that if I have booked work with another family on my day off and she then needs to change the working days that week for whatever reason then it's tough.

As I said before, I don't mind being flexible I just really don't want to work an extra day for the same pay, or work at such short notice unless it's an emergency.

(Didn't mean too drip feed!) but she asked me to work tomorrow for a few hours because she wanted to pop to the shops without having to drag the kids around with her. I really wouldn't class that as an emergency.

LisaSimpsonsbff Mon 14-Oct-19 23:10:11

Oh, and nurseries don't tend to facilitate benefit fraud, either, which is presumably another downside in her view.

EstebanTheMagnificent Mon 14-Oct-19 23:29:32

She doesn't like nursery environments because children can't have 1-1 care (I think I would be the same personally if I had children myself) that's why she chose a nanny.

But her children aren't getting 1:1 now. They're getting 1:3 - which is the ratio for under-twos in nurseries.

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 23:39:10

EstebanTheMagnificent - sorry, my fault for not saying. Her eldest is 6 so in full time school and doesn't need so much attention when at home as he'll entertain himself most of the time with toys and crafts.

Middle child is 3 and youngest is 8 months so I think I am able to divide my attention between the three better due to the age gaps as where in a nursery the children will tend to be in the same age bracket i.e 1 staff member to 3 babies (which I found harder personally)

Wagamama5 Mon 14-Oct-19 23:41:24

Again, she also has trust issues so I suppose in a nursery you don't really know what's going on behind closed doors (I know this is very rare though) but as we're friends and have been a long time she knows I would never hurt or bring harm to her children.

MangoSalsa Mon 14-Oct-19 23:46:53

Don’t think this will work out. If I were you I’d say you are happy to work for her til she finds another nanny, for a maximum of x weeks (whatever you are comfortable with).

Tbh, I don’t think working for friends ever works out- working with them is different, like a couple of friends starting a business together as equal partners.

Years ago, I was made redundant. An friend from school offered me a job with his then fledging events company as I had relevant experience and I’d helped him out with some initial ideas/input before he started out. He really meant well by it, but he had also confided in me about thinking his existing employees didn’t work as hard on the business as he did (pointed out that he just needed to realise they weren’t as invested as him, were they doing good work or not was a fairer standard.

So I said that’s a lovely offer, I’d be happy to help out p/t whilst I looked for something else, no need to pay me, just buy me lunch or a couple of drinks after work on the days I’ve been in. Did that for about a month before I had something else.

GabsAlot Mon 14-Oct-19 23:53:23

Youre being as aflexible as agreed- anymore no-PP are right she wouldnt find a nanny who wold move their days along with hers-she obvuously doesnt realise that but you need to discuss again the arrangement

Fweakout Tue 15-Oct-19 00:06:22

i don't know why it's that bad to work two mornings rather than one full day? Unless you rely on picking up the extra 2 days/week work with other families to pay your bills.

scittlescatter Tue 15-Oct-19 00:07:19

I was going to employ a friend as a nanny, but in hindsight, I was naive to think it could have worked.

She started asking for more money before starting(compared to the pre-agreed salary which we had decided, and was what she had asked for). She asked for a rediculous, and completely unrealistic amount, so I said it wouldn't work out. I think she had decided she didn't want to do it, which was fine, but I wish she had just say so. I found it really hurtful that she made an agreement, let me think that childcare was sorted, and got the children to know her, before deciding that she couldn't be bothered unless she got way above the going rate

Wagamama5 Tue 15-Oct-19 00:23:05

I'm not saying it's a bad thing Fweakout, it's just not what was agreed in the beginning.

I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy working those hours. I prefer longer days personally, that way I can work less days over the week.

I think I'm more upset because she's changing the goalposts so soon. I've only been employed by her for two months and already things are changing. I appreciate, especially in nanny jobs working hours often change as the children get older, start school etc but just not this soon after starting with them.

Also, we haven't even had a proper discussion about it. If she had come to me and said "can we discuss the working hours?", I could of explained my reasonings for not wanting to work more days but it's almost as if she's changed my working hours without even notifying me confused

monkeymonkey2010 Tue 15-Oct-19 00:50:24

You're too emotionally involved for this to be the same as any other nannying job.
YOU have been professional all the way through and on the ball re the tricks employers can play......and they are tricks, we all play them to some extent.

she asked me to work tomorrow for a few hours because she wanted to pop to the shops without having to drag the kids around with her. I really wouldn't class that as an emergency
This though, is crossing the friendship-CFuckery boundary....and that's on top of repeated attempts at employer-CFuckery boundary crossing.

If you are any more 'flexible' you're going to find the boundaries constantly being pushed.
I'm sure she is a LOT more self aware than she's making out.

Derbee Tue 15-Oct-19 00:50:26

YANBU. Your friend may not be a CF, she might just not understand how employing a nanny works. You sound great, because you have set boundaries and stuck to them. Keep on being clear, and hopefully she’ll get it. Hope it works out

LittlePaintBox Tue 15-Oct-19 01:40:53

she'd never, ever have found a nursery that would have let her book different days every week and then frequently change them like she does with you.

Yes. She's either very bad at planning, or taking advantage of your good nature.

IMO the only way you can make this work is by stating your boundaries in terms of the time you're offering, and sticking to them. I'm not clear why a nanny should be expected to be available outside her contracted hours for an emergency, but I agree that needing to get to the shops on her own isn't an emergency. As a friend, you might step in to free her up to do that, but not as her nanny. I think the friend/nanny boundary might just be too difficult to establish, unless she's prepared to work with you and stop asking you to do things at short notice.

Wilmalovescake Tue 15-Oct-19 02:09:43

Honestly, I think this will end up ruining your friendship.

Thatoneoverthere Tue 15-Oct-19 02:28:07

Firstly I would never work for a friend, it's just asking for trouble.
I have had a few job interviews where parents wanted to pay for 35 ish hours a week but also wanted who ever took the job to keep 60 hours a week free just incase they needed them (and not do a nanny share either to bridge the gap). Oddly enough I said no to ones like that. Same kind of parent who asks if you'll take part of your pay in cash in my experience and will begrudge every penny they pay you.

LuvMyBubbles Tue 15-Oct-19 02:28:45

Some comments on here make me so cross.
OP signed a contract for three days she goes above and beyond to change those each week. So no she does not need to work them over four days, just because that suits mum that week.
She offered extra hours to be paid that is what should be respected. Her other days allow her to work for other people or not but she has no obligation to change this. Maybe tighten that offer up so it won’t cause any more conflict.
Can you have a chat and explain some of your frustrations to date and see if you guys can iron it out as otherwise I think you need to look for another job. Or talk and say let’s see how things are in a few months which then gives you both option to think about plan b if it doesn’t change.
Well done OP for being strong and to the point every time she has asked for something out of line, a lot of people would not be this firm.

itsboiledeggsagain Tue 15-Oct-19 07:08:21

Was your contract for 3 days or 28hours op?
That is helpful if you don't want to work the fourth.

Although it is harder with a friend I think you need to start saying you are busy on short notice say requests, start some other work/new hobbies. If you stay breezy and regretful then she will hopefully start to understand the state of play and you will settle into it

CatteStreet Tue 15-Oct-19 07:58:55

Pretty shock at the PP who was furious at her nanny wanting everything to go through the books, as if tax evasion were some kind of moral right hmm

Honestly, I would be looking around for a new job. I don't think this one will work long-term. I'm guessing there's a combination of unrealistic expectations, self-absorption (esp if you don't have children, she may be seeing only her own struggles to juggle everything and just assuming you can be flexible) and a perhaps unconscious attempt to use your friendship to push the boundaries at work here.

I agree that working for a friend was probably a really bad idea, and it sounds as if she's been the pushier one from the start (pushing you into taking the job).

shoebedobedobedobedoo Tue 15-Oct-19 10:01:06

Pretty shock at the PP who was furious at her nanny wanting everything to go through the books, as if tax evasion were some kind of moral right hmm

I’m going to assume youve never had a nanny? I think most people feel annoyed when they employ a nanny (the most expensive form of childcare, but the only form of childcare that works for some jobs -like OPs) that they are being taxed twice . My income is taxed and then we pay tax again to employ a nanny. For a nanny with a net pay of £11/hr the cost to the employer is £15-16 by the time you’ve added tax, NI and pension. And I’ve already paid tax once. It was £30-60/month, it involved a whole heap of extra paperwork (my time- she never added up her hours to tell me how much I owed her and she never submitted it to the payroll company, despite being asked) and I’ve honestly never met anyone else who pays their nanny’s overtime through the books. It was insult to injury after she was late all the time, so if we’d taken her lateness into account, she probably wouldn’t have been due very much overtime. And yes, all of that was my fault for not managing her properly, but Therein lies the problem of employing someone you know.
I’m going to assume all the pp jumping on the tax comment have never ever paid anyone in cash?

dottiedodah Tue 15-Oct-19 10:11:58

I think this is a non workable situation TBH! Working for a friend is fraught with problems .I think if you value your friendship then it would be best to find another job elsewhere

EstebanTheMagnificent Tue 15-Oct-19 10:16:38

@shoebedobedobedobedoo this is a genuine question as I’ve never employed a nanny, but how does that equate to double taxation for you? You pay tax and NI on your gross salary and your nanny pays it on hers.

LisaSimpsonsbff Tue 15-Oct-19 10:19:08

this is a genuine question as I’ve never employed a nanny, but how does that equate to double taxation for you? You pay tax and NI on your gross salary and your nanny pays it on hers.

Indeed. It's more visible than the fact that I pay my childminder out of my taxed income and then she pays tax on what I pay her, but it isn't actually different.

LisaSimpsonsbff Tue 15-Oct-19 10:20:43

I recognise that if you employ a nanny you also have to pay employer's NI, but again that's no different to paying a nursery, who also pay that out of the money you pay (and factor it into the fees), it's just much more obvious (and admittedly more hassle) to the person paying it.

margotsdevil Tue 15-Oct-19 10:27:22

I may have read this the wrong way - but if there have been weeks where you've only worked 2 days as her third working day has been a Saturday, and you've agreed that you'd have some give and take with hours, is it not reasonable to do 4 days another week?

That aside - I've been the boss and employed a friend - neither the working arrangement nor the friendship survived and I wouldn't ever do it again.

RoseGoldEagle Tue 15-Oct-19 10:44:25

Didn't mean too drip feed!) but she asked me to work tomorrow for a few hours because she wanted to pop to the shops without having to drag the kids around with her. I really wouldn't class that as an emergency. Don’t really get why this is an issue- presumably if you didn’t have extra work on you might be glad of those extra hours, or if not you can just say no? As long as she doesn’t expect it, I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

joaninthesun Tue 15-Oct-19 10:44:57

shoebedobedobedobedoo. The same can be said for every employer, you are viewing it wrong. Everyone pays tax, employees/employers. Did you agree to a gross rate of pay or what your nanny would take home? If you agreed the take home that is you fault for not understanding

Should your employer not pay your tax as they are paying their own tax?

Sorry I find your rational wrong and misguided.

thatdamnwoman Tue 15-Oct-19 10:45:01

Sounds to me as if despite the best of intentions on both sides you're at risk of sliding towards a sort of zero-hours contract situation, where she expects you to work when she needs you and feels she has the right to change your hours and days to suit her. I understand your discomfort and I can imagine she knows her desire for complete flexibility is unreasonable but wants it anyway.

I can't see your friendship and the job surviving. I would step out now and find another job if you value your friendship. IME mixing work and personal life is inevitably a disaster.

joaninthesun Tue 15-Oct-19 10:46:27

I’m going to assume youve never had a nanny

And I’m going to assume you’ve never employed someone before.

Homer28 Tue 15-Oct-19 10:59:13

@joaninthesun An Employer will pay ER NIC at a rate of 13.8% on an employees gross wage over a certain (very low) threshold so it's not quite as simple as only the EE suffering tax!

Wagamama5 Tue 15-Oct-19 11:05:33

RoseGoldEagle - yes but they wouldn't be paid as extra hours. I would just maybe work a shorter day on the Friday or something but as stated before I only work three days a week which is what was agreed before I started working for her

Wagamama5 Tue 15-Oct-19 11:14:02

*Margotsdevil - there is give and take with the hours but that is meant with the days I will work. Once she has chosen the days she needs me to work that week, then that's that. Obviously if she needs me to work extra on another day and I have no plans that's fine, but she doesn't want to actually pay me for the extra hours worked.

Again, I would be happy to discuss the working hours with her but the fact is she hasn't even brought it up. She has just changed my working hours without even letting me know. Surely in most jobs if your working hours change you are notified of it first?

We agreed not to bank hours so if I were to work two days then four that is technically what we would be doing. I only see the parents benefiting from that arrangement as well unfortunately. I have always offered to work the third day whilst C is off but she doesn't want me to, which is her choice but I don't see why I should have to suffer because of it.

As stated before, we have a contract which states I work three days. If she wants to change it, that's fine but she needs to have a proper chat with me about it first. Not just change it and hope I don't notice.

As far as I can remember I have always kept to my end of the deal, I.e remained available each week for her to choose what days she needs me before accepting any other work etc but she seems to want to keep adding little things in and changing the goal posts which I don't think is fair (at least until she's spoken to me about it first)*

Wagamama5 Tue 15-Oct-19 11:14:29

Sorry didn't mean to write that all in bold blush

Namechangeforthiscancershit Tue 15-Oct-19 11:20:27

^ I’m going to assume all the pp jumping on the tax comment have never ever paid anyone in cash^

Not an employee, no. Because that is illegal. I can't believe you think it's normal.

Totally different to pay someone self-employed like a cleaner in cash.

Wagamama5 Tue 15-Oct-19 11:26:22

itsboiledeggsagain - sorry, I somehow missed your comment!

It saids in my contract that "the nanny will be required to work 28hrs over three days per between Monday to Friday".

I made sure it was written that way in order to prevent any confusion in the future!

museumum Tue 15-Oct-19 11:28:21

I’ve read the whole thread and I still don’t see the issue. She keeps asking if you want to do more shifts and you keep saying no. That’s fine isn’t it? Or do you not want her to ask? If so just say “no and please don’t ask me again” next time.

Wagamama5 Tue 15-Oct-19 11:33:01

Museummum - she wants me to do extra shifts but not pay me thats the issue I'm facing. If she was happy to pay the extra then there wouldn't be a problem.

I'm going to ask her for a chat tomorrow and see what her expectations are. If we can't come to some sort of agreement (which I thought we already had via the contract) then I may need to look for another job to salvage our friendship.

RoseGoldEagle Tue 15-Oct-19 11:53:59

RoseGoldEagle - yes but they wouldn't be paid as extra hours. I would just maybe work a shorter day on the Friday or something but as stated before I only work three days a week which is what was agreed before I started working for her

Ah I see, sorry I misunderstood. In that case I completely see your point, and obviously that isn’t what you originally agreed. I guess all you can do is sit down and talk it through with her, it could just be teething problems and will settle down once you’ve cleared the air, if not I’d be thinking about finding another nannying job. As others have said, she’s very lucky to have someone like you who is willing to change days depending on her shifts, so hopefully she’ll realise this and start being a bit more reasonable!

MotherOfDragonite Tue 15-Oct-19 15:24:18

Obviously you can't work three days worth of hours over four days, as then you're tying up a fourth day when you could work elsewhere.

Maybe ask her if she needs to hire you for a fourth day? You can say you've noticed that she has been asking if you're free to work on a fourth day, and that while you're happy to continue working three days a week you would also be willing to do a regular fourth day for her if she has found she needs it?

There's also really no harm in saying that you only work full days, as otherwise it prevents you from taking full days of work from other people!

Wagamama5 Fri 18-Oct-19 14:19:58

I thought I would update this thread (if anyone is interested).

Well, you were right! It's all ended in disaster and our friendship is effectively over.

On Tuesday night she text me at around 10pm telling me that the hours were going to change again and I would now be working 7:30-6 instead of 8:00-5:30 as per agreed. She wanted me to start these hours the following day so again not very much notice. I agreed to the change as I was planning on speaking to her the following day about these issues anyway.

I was planning on speaking to her on Wednesday morning but when I arrived at the house she'd already left for work and then dad took over in the evening so I never saw her, the same thing happened yesterday.

I was suppose to be working 11-5 today but last night she text me at 9pm asking if I could start at 9am instead (envy). Although annoying I didn't say anything and just agreed but thought it would be the perfect time to ask for a chat and I said I would come in earlier to speak to her so she could still leave the house on time.

She then started bombarding me with phone calls, texting me and saying she couldn't wait until the morning as it was making her anxious and she wouldn't be able to sleep properly. I said I would of preferred to talk about it face to face as sometimes over text/phone things can be taken the wrong way and I didn't want to say something I might regret. I also told her not to worry as it wasn't anything awful.

She kept phoning me constantly last night whilst I was at home which was really stressing me out. Again I said I really didn't want to talk over the phone about it so she said text me then. Since I didn't really have a choice (she probably wouldn't of left me alone until I did) I text her. She told me I could speak to her about anything and not to feel awkward addressing any issues.

I wrote a text out to her (in the nicest way possible so not to upset her) detailing my issues and I gave examples (just incase she asked me when these things happened). I said at the end of the message that it was nothing to do with children, I loved them but that there were just a few little niggles between us. I said I still wanted to work for her but just hoped we could smooth things over and come to an agreement where we were both happy.

Her response was : "don't bother coming in tomorrow".

She then sent me a very long voice note on whatsapp basically saying that she hadn't done anything wrong, that I wasn't on call and the way I feel is my own fault and not hers confused When I mentioned about the hours constantly changing she then said "but I've notified you of every change". I said yes but it's always been the night before which isn't very much notice.

She also said that she didn't even need me for 28 hours per week anymore but that she had carried on paying me for the full hours because we were friends. It honestly felt like she wanted me to thank her for this though and that I should of been grateful? hmm When I explained to her that it wasn't my fault that the hours had changed and that the job was offered to me on the basis of working 28 hrs a week she had nothing to say. I didn't feel like I owed her a thank you just because she had followed her contractual agreements.

I was really confused as she'd told me to be honest with her and when I did she took the hump. I said I was sorry if I upset her but obviously I couldn't go on feeling this way. Again I reiterated that I still wanted to work for her but that if she didn't want me as her nanny anymore that was fine. I asked her to let me know as obviously I need to find another job and ASAP.

She didn't respond and then at around 12pm as I was falling to sleep she texted me and asked if she could phone me. I asked her if we could leave it until the morning as I was really tired and tbh I didn't really know what else there was to talk about at this point? hmm She'd made her feelings pretty clear.

She then replied with "well thanks you've totally fucked my job up for me now".

I replied with "I was happy to come in as normal and talk everything over and continue working for you. You've told me not to come in tomorrow so I don't understand how you can accuse me of messing with your job?".

She had no response to that.

I told her I wanted to carry on as normal as again I loved the job but it seemed like she didn't want to compromise. It was basically her way or the high way!

I knew she wouldn't follow through with the contract and give me a months notice but at this point I really have no energy to argue with her about it. I just asked to be paid for the hours that I've worked this week and her response was "of course you will be, I'm not a dickhead" confused.

She text me this morning and said that she was upset it had affected our friendship. I replied with "but you were the one that's ended the agreement, I was happy to come in as normal so yes because of that it has affected our friendship". She had nothing to say.

She knows full well that I have rent and bills to pay, that I live by myself and have no one else to help me so she has really left me in shit street big time. The least she could of done was followed the proper notice period or at least paid me for it if she didn't want me to work just to tie me over for another month until I can find another job. I don't see how our friendship can ever recover from this as I feel really let down and hurt by what she's done.

Lesson learned, don't work for your friends.

LordNibbler Fri 18-Oct-19 14:28:04

She then replied with "well thanks you've totally fucked my job up for me now".
And she sees no irony there? hmm

BigChocFrenzy Fri 18-Oct-19 14:32:49

OP:

*Îf one month's notice* / pay *is in your contract,then hold her to it !*

If not, learn from this and put it in the next contract

Wagamama5 Fri 18-Oct-19 14:37:30

LordNibbler - exactly! This is what I can't understand. She told me not to come into work, I can't exactly go against her decision as it's her children, but somehow it's my fault and now I've ruined her job?

I told her this morning, I was happy to carry on as I loved the job itself and I just wanted to smooth things over and make sure we were both on the same page, but she didn't want that so what else can I do?

I'm not going to just carry on and agree to things I'm not happy with just because we're friends. It's not fair to me.

She also said that I wasn't on call but when I explained to her that I'm available to her Monday to Friday and I never take on any other work until she's decided what days she needs to me work, she had nothing to say. I told her I was happy to carry on that way as that's what we agreed to but I felt that I was already being extremely flexible as it was and I just didn't want little things constantly being added in. I explained to her that most nannies ask for set days but I hadn't done that so she was getting a very good deal already.

Wagamama5 Fri 18-Oct-19 14:39:39

BigChocFrenzy - it is in our contract but I'm not sure how I would hold her to this exactly? I haven't got the money to take her to court especially now since I haven't got a job anyway, I need all the money I can get blush

TatianaLarina Fri 18-Oct-19 14:44:11

I’m really sorry OP.

She will get a shock when she hires a non-friend nanny and discovers how much less flexibility they offer.

Wagamama5 Fri 18-Oct-19 14:51:30

Thank you TatianaLarina. We live in quite a rural area as well and I think there are only 3-4 registered nannies including myself who live here so I honestly do wish her the best of luck finding someone else by Tuesday as well, as I believe that is the next day she's working.

The fact that she thinks I'm being awkward and inflexible is what pisses me off the most I think. Her husband was home late by 40 minutes on Wednesday and 20 minutes again yesterday. No text, just a "sorry I'm late" when he arrived home. Did I kick up a fuss? No I didn't as it's give and take but by god she's just taking taking taking!

MrsAJ27 Fri 18-Oct-19 15:00:07

Actually I think your friend is a dickhead. You were very flexible and she still took the piss out of you.

How easy will it be to get another job?

Wagamama5 Fri 18-Oct-19 15:05:33

It should be easy enough to find another job. I've already applied for a few this morning however nanny jobs are few and far between which is a shame as that's what I enjoy doing the most.

I'm happy to do anything for the time being just to keep the bills paid until I can find something that I'll really like. I've applied for a few cleaning roles, kitchen assistant and I think a child care assessor role (which I don't think I'll get as I'm only Level 2 qualified but it's worth a shot).

Lysianthus Fri 18-Oct-19 15:11:42

I'm sorry this has happened but just to add that your month's notice is exactly what the small claims court is for, and just the threat of this alone might be enough to persuade her to pay you the 121 hours she owes you in notice.

BradTomby Fri 18-Oct-19 15:35:29

It doesn't cost much the small claims cost and if you win you can claim it back as well.

www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

ibanez0815 Fri 18-Oct-19 15:44:23

if you enjoy the nanny job, find a role in another family or another role even.

friendship and business do not mix!!! I learned it the hard way too.

Puzzledandpissedoff Fri 18-Oct-19 16:11:21

Lesson learned, don't work for your friends

Indeed ... it can work, but as you've found out, too often you end up with a weird hybrid situation which suits nobody

I'm sure you know deep down that you've done nothing wrong and that it's her unreasonable demands (and unfortunate attitude) which have led to this, but good luck to her when she discovers a "stranger nanny" won't put up with what you have

BigChocFrenzy Fri 18-Oct-19 16:24:21

Wagamama5
Have you actually reminded her of the 1 month clause in the contract and asked her to honour this ?

timeisnotaline Fri 18-Oct-19 17:27:00

The small claims court op is how you chase your notice period. Message her so it’s in writing - hi x just to be clear, I know you don’t want me in Tuesday but I have bills to pay and still need to be paid my 1m notice period, just as you would expect it paid at your work. Regards, op

JasonPollack Fri 18-Oct-19 17:37:01

Absolutely ask to be paid your notice period. Why should you put up with anything else because she is a stroppy unprofessional cowbag?

Mesage her letting her know you need it. If it is not forthcoming then send an official letter telling her to expect legal action. Then small claims, you don't need a lawyer and its reasonably easy to file I think.

Elieza Fri 18-Oct-19 20:30:17

Sorry it’s come to this OP. It sucks.

Witchinaditch Fri 18-Oct-19 21:45:21

This probably could have been avoided if you had just banked hours, that seems to be what she wanted all along but you felt you wouldn’t have benefited. Ah well lesson learned don’t work for your friends. I hope you find another job soon

MotherOfDragonite Fri 18-Oct-19 21:45:49

I'm so sorry, this is awful and she sounds very unreasonable. Glad to hear that you are still able to be positive and look for other work!

Namechangeforthiscancershit Fri 18-Oct-19 21:53:15

@Witchinaditch wouldn't have benefited OP? That's an understatement? She'd have been massively out of pocket and given why this employer thinks is reasonable notice, effectively stopped from working for anyone else.

StripeyDeckchair Fri 18-Oct-19 22:15:15

You need to start looking for a new job & move on. Learn from this experience NEVER work for a friend.

Thehop Fri 18-Oct-19 22:32:30

I’m really sorry OP. I hope something comes up really soon.

MoaningMinniee Fri 18-Oct-19 22:48:38

I came onto the thread to say nooo don't do it... I was rather dispiritingly found to be correct when I read through. We do animal care rather than child care, although a lot of it is very similar. I have found from 17 years experience that making friends with clients once they are clients is not a problem at all, but staying friends with clients when they were friends before hasn't happened, the relationship just can't survive the nitty gritty of contracts.

Wagamama5 Sat 19-Oct-19 18:42:19

Thank you so much for all the lovely replies!
It's good to know that I wasn't being unreasonable.

I've been thinking about everything that's happened all day and to be honest, it's like a weights been lifted off my shoulders. It was never going to end well so I just need to move on now.

I have been invited for an interview for a nanny job working away, 2 weeks on/2 weeks off which I think will work great as I'll still get to come home and see family and friends, plus it's a very generous salary and would be great experience. The family also seem lovely and, (which I think is the most important thing) - we are not personal friends so there is no awkwardness talking about these sorts of things grin

Fingers crossed I get it!

I just wanted to ask (hopefully someone knows) - My friend has used my registration number to claim help towards the costs in order to pay my wages. As I've said before there are only 3-4 nannies including myself who live here so I think she will struggle to find someone else.

I have a feeling (more of a hunch) she may hire a non registered nanny and use my number to claim the costs. I don't want to sound spiteful but I pay for that myself every year and I don't think she should benefit from using it if she's not employing me. Is there any way I can notify either the regulating body or HMRC that I no longer for her? Has anyone had to do this before?

Wagamama5 Sat 19-Oct-19 18:45:23

That I no longer work for her* I meant to say. I have only brought this up as I knew a parent who did the exact same thing and used her old nannies number to claim the money to pay her new non registered nanny. I don't think HMRC or the regulating body have no way of knowing unless the nanny actually reports it as they never contact the nanny to ask who she's working for (they never have with me anyway).

SandyY2K Sat 19-Oct-19 18:54:27

I wouldn't employ my friend or be her employee.

You've tried your best and in spite of drawing up a contract...she still seems to be trying to push boundaries.

bakesalesally Sat 19-Oct-19 19:21:40

Hope you get the new job: never work for a friend !

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