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To tell you why I voted to leave

(952 Posts)
readingreadingreading Wed 04-Sep-19 18:20:47

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Juells Tue 10-Sep-19 13:36:40

Our public health system is different to the NHS as well. Though if you're admitted to hospital via A&E all treatment is free, and the specialists work in both public and private sector so you could have the same specialist as if you're going privately.

Anyone who rolls up to A&E without being referred by a GP, and without being subsequently admitted to hospital, gets a bill of (IIRC) €100.

I don't know why anyone would go to a foreign country - particularly someone who is elderly, disabled and on medication - without checking out what they're entitled to, and what forms or insurance they need. Then blame the EU 🙄

TheresWaldo Mon 09-Sep-19 20:28:10

"The ehic thing is a farce, I had my elderly disabled df calling me in a panic that he had knocked himself and was bleeding out and hospital wouldn't treat him without insurance number (heart issues on warfrin)

In France dd fell, banged head, vomiting... We had ambulance for hospital but interviewed and all details taken first before exam and treatment!! Bill came through post after..."

An EHIC card is required by my travel insurance. It is expressly stated. EHIC only covers certain things though - emergency treatment and other things according to what is offered in other EU countries to their own citizens. So depending where you go, what is covered is different. A&E treatment is normally covered but not hospital stays (in France, I didn't have to pay for dd to have an emergency op, but had to pay for the hospital room plus the ambulance!) You should always have insurance when travelling. I fear the cost of it will now increase if the EHIC card ceases to be valid.

jasjas1973 Sun 08-Sep-19 20:20:23

@Autumnintheair

Its not weasily to challenge your assertion that EU policies are responsible for gun running and trafficking.

If the IRA had been using spears and slings in the 60s 70 80s and 90s then fair enough, you'd have a point but we all know they managed to get explosives, machine guns mortars and ammunition during this time.
Women have been trafficked into british cities for since the year dot.

My DD had a recurrnce of her stomach bug today, she was seen by a local Dr, just presented her EHIC, perhaps its because she is very pro EU and your Df isn't ?

MerryChristmasHarry Sun 08-Sep-19 20:10:35

Are you on glue?

Cyberworrier Sun 08-Sep-19 19:43:46

Do feel free to visit the other side of holy-moly preacher territory then.

?

XingMing Sun 08-Sep-19 19:34:09

Do feel free to visit the other side of holy-moly preacher territory then.

Lweji Sun 08-Sep-19 10:17:40

I apologise, profusely, to anyone in NI who thinks I was ignorant of the issues (possibly true)

This matches the rest of the post. It's not a proper apology.

MerryChristmasHarry Sun 08-Sep-19 09:55:58

Yes, sex slavery is a global phenomenon and lots of it doesn't involve any EU country at all. It just looks reachy and pathetic to try and blame the EU for it. There are actual legitimate criticisms of the EU if you want to try and justify a Leave vote.

CatkinToadflax Sun 08-Sep-19 09:54:26

I voted to remain and I'd do so again in a heartbeat.

I am fed up of being insulted by leavers, being called a Remoaner, being told to "suck it up, buttercup", being laughed at and mocked for continuing in my belief that remaining is for the best, being accused of 'throwing my toys out of the pram'. How childish.

Frankly if the leavers I've encountered were that certain that their decision was the right one, I'm not sure why they'd feel the need to goad and niggle the remainers so much.

Having said that, the patronising comments coming from both sides on this thread are quite eye opening. "I'm embarrassed for you!" "I'm cringing for you!" "No, I'm cringing for you!" Lovely.

DecomposingComposers Sun 08-Sep-19 09:45:37

Personally I doubt i would vote for a united Ireland at the moment if it did come to a vote on both sides of the border. I simply meant that YOUR country should deal with the issues within YOUR borders and not pretend/lie/obfuscate that it is somehow Ireland's problem. It is your citizens in your territory and your problem. You have to deal with it.

Pallisers I read this as you referring to the Troubles and saying that it's a UK.problem and for the UK to sort out. I didn't realise you were talking about Brexit

GlitterDustFairy Sun 08-Sep-19 09:34:10

@Autumnintheair

*Sex slavery has become phenomenon... Gun running... The guns used at battaclan, the eu were warned about dangers years before and did nothing... Drugs, gangs, vulnerable people in slavery...
All flourishing under eu.*

But neither is sex slavery a predominantly EU issue; it is a global issue surely? I'll hold up my hands and say I haven't done a lot of research into the issue but from what little I have, much suggests that it is predominantly EU countries that are trying to tackle the issue.

I have never said that the EU is some form of peaceful utopia where its sunny every day and everything is perfect, In fact i have said the opposite... it is far from perfect but how do people expect to change things if we take away our own say in how things are run? Do people really think the EU will not influence our lives at all if/when we go? At least now we have some form of representation, that will all be gone afterwards.

My experiences of the EHIC card are completely different (albeit limited). I was seen without question following a skiing injury in Italy years ago. But that is really the only time I've ever had to experience its use so can't compare and contrast. Plus, it is clearly stated that even with the EHIC card travelers must take out suitable travel insurance to cover illness and accidents when abroad. I'm sure European countries don't want Brits "abusing their healthcare" any more than most brits want people "coming over here and using our NHS etc" or whatever it is the DM peddle confused

MerryChristmasHarry Sun 08-Sep-19 09:31:01

Sadly it is juells.

Juells Sun 08-Sep-19 08:52:38

Blaming people in NI for problems that your decision has exacerbated is horribly ignorant.

But par for the course 🙄

In France dd fell, banged head, vomiting... We had ambulance for hospital but interviewed and all details taken first before exam and treatment!! Bill came through post after...

I've seen a lot of leavers complaining about foreigners using the NHS. So isn't the system you describe exactly what leavers would want? Checking eligibilty? It's not difficult to arrange the documents before going to another EU country, why is it the responsibility of everyone else to take you on trust?

twofingerstoEverything Sun 08-Sep-19 08:42:24

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries...
I am also old enough to remember this period. Do you know who 'managed to live and work in different countries' easily? Rich, privileged people, particularly in the days of exchange controls. FOM has allowed people from far more diverse backgrounds to live and work abroad.

MerryChristmasHarry Sun 08-Sep-19 08:35:48

I apologise, profusely, to anyone in NI who thinks I was ignorant of the issues (possibly true); you have political trouble closer to home that you need to address too. Easy to shunt blame back to London, when your own politicians won't enter the same room in Stormont and talk. The re-emergence of your "freedom fighters" is alarming.

The first sentence doesn't match the rest of the post. Blaming people in NI for problems that your decision has exacerbated is horribly ignorant.

twofingerstoEverything Sun 08-Sep-19 08:17:18

autumn
Sex slavery has become phenomenon... Gun running... The guns used at battaclan, the eu were warned about dangers years before and did nothing... Drugs, gangs, vulnerable people in slavery... All flourishing under eu.

I've already posted something similar on this thread, but you really cannot lay the blame for these things on the eu, as they are "flourishing" worldwide, particularly the phenomenon of modern slavery.

You can take a look at the Global Slavery Index here. Of the top 10 countries doing most to tackle slavery, all but two are EU states. Of the remaining two - US and Montenegro - one is in line to join the EU. If you look at the countries which are taking the least action, none has open borders.

You can also find information about arms trafficking on the internet quie easily, but that probably won't suit your confirmation bias either. hmm

lifesnotaspectatorsport Sun 08-Sep-19 07:12:36

@XingMing

I voted Leave, but it wasn't a let's burn our bridges Leave.... I envisaged a civilised divorce, not a scorched earth policy. I wasn't even unhappy with TM's withdrawal agreement. In a customs union, co-ordination with EU standards, reciprocal travel and health arrangements, security etc. I did not vote Leave to be dobbed in with Jacob Rees-Mogg, the ERG and the Brexit means Brexit extremists.

This is why we need a second referendum. Nobody can say for sure what type of Brexit 'the people' voted for.

pallisers Sun 08-Sep-19 02:48:23

Pallisers - are you saying there's only one side in NI?

What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about the effect of brexit on the peace in NI (YOUR COUNTRY) established by a long, pain-staking, internationally supported peace process culminating in the GFA. You are just throwing incendiary phrases when challenged "united Ireland!" "one side!" even though nothing I said has anything to do with this.

I responded to you because you seem to think NI is a Republic of Ireland problem to solve. It isn't (although god knows the republic will probably end up cleaning up some shit). It is a UK problem to solve. why is that so hard for you to understand? Why do you insist on posing the problems with brexit and NI into a "united Ireland" (never said it) or "onesided issue" (never said that either)

I think I won't respond to you anymore. you are clearly not interested in any real discussion on how to avoid the effects of brexit on the UK citizens of NI. It is hard to imagine that a country could ignore and betray its own citizens just because of where they live - but there you are - UK in 2016-19 - and you certainly make it easier to understand.

Lweji Sun 08-Sep-19 00:43:45

@22XingMing

Considering the people campaigning for it and that there was no actual form of "Leave" put to the vote, didn't you have an inkling that the shit would hit the fan?

Unlike the OP I have no trouble believing that Leave voters at the very least didn't fully engage their brains when voting.

DecomposingComposers Sun 08-Sep-19 00:06:47

Pallisers - are you saying there's only one side in NI?

pallisers Sat 07-Sep-19 23:30:55

No. the particular political situation IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY prevents you from securing the border with that EU country. There was no civil war in the Republic of Ireland.

Oh I see. So we should unite Ireland then? How long until you are rounded on.

Not sure where you got that from my post but not at all. Personally I doubt i would vote for a united Ireland at the moment if it did come to a vote on both sides of the border. I simply meant that YOUR country should deal with the issues within YOUR borders and not pretend/lie/obfuscate that it is somehow Ireland's problem. It is your citizens in your territory and your problem. You have to deal with it.

Amazing how the word border hasn't made it clear to people that that means there is one side (UK) and the other side (Ireland). The GFA was an excellent compromise to deal with this fact within this historic context of Irish history and the partition. Brexit blew it up because people thought other issues were more important than the safety of citizens of the UK in NI and peace in a part of the UK that was in armed conflict for years. Amazing really that people then turn around and say well we are blowing up the hard-wrought, complex, internationally assisted compromise that worked for 20 years so could you please do another different compromise right now.

Cyberworrier Sat 07-Sep-19 22:37:16

I apologise, profusely, to anyone in NI who thinks I was ignorant of the issues (possibly true); you have political trouble closer to home that you need to address too. Easy to shunt blame back to London, when your own politicians won't enter the same room in Stormont and talk. The re-emergence of your "freedom fighters" is alarming.

It doesn’t make sense to start with an apology and then go on to say the rest of what you’ve said. Don’t you think people from both communities in NI are alarmed at the prospect of this all starting up? Really not helpful to blame ordinary people in NI.

Also, yes IT IS easy to blame London for this shitshow! More specifically Westminster, I know Londoners voted overwhelmingly to remain.
I don’t see Plaid Cymru or Nicola Sturgeon showing such selfish attitudes wrt Brexit - although tbf Greens and Lib Dem’s wouldn’t have got us into this mess. Unfortunately whatever Labour say or do, JC would be so unpalatable to unionist community because of his Sinn Fein/IRA associations.

LaurieMarlow Sat 07-Sep-19 22:30:26

you have political trouble closer to home that you need to address too.

Well I don’t think a single person would deny that.

However, in the context of all those issues, dismantling the GFA is literally the last thing NI needs.

XingMing Sat 07-Sep-19 22:22:38

Had I known three years ago what a divisive shitstorm this was going to be, I would have been in another country to avoid the referendum entirely. Preferably where I had proved I had enough money to see out my stay and with full health insurance, on the other side of the world.

For a number of reasons, I voted Leave, but it wasn't a let's burn our bridges Leave. It was more the case that I felt the EC Commissioners would dismiss a Remain to Reform vote as accepting remain, and ignore the reform instruction, as it wasn't on the ballot paper, as they have done so cavalierly in all the years of EU budgets not receiving audit approvals.

Equally mistakenly, I envisaged a civilised divorce, not a scorched earth policy. I wasn't even unhappy with TM's withdrawal agreement. In a customs union, co-ordination with EU standards, reciprocal travel and health arrangements, security etc. I did not vote Leave to be dobbed in with Jacob Rees-Mogg, the ERG and the Brexit means Brexit extremists.

I apologise, profusely, to anyone in NI who thinks I was ignorant of the issues (possibly true); you have political trouble closer to home that you need to address too. Easy to shunt blame back to London, when your own politicians won't enter the same room in Stormont and talk. The re-emergence of your "freedom fighters" is alarming.

So yes, off to hell in a hand cart with all extremists and passionately committed types, on every side of the fortress. Bring back Screamin Lord Sutch and the Monster Raving Loony Party; we need someone with sense and perspective, because there ain't any in politics.

buttermilkwaffles Sat 07-Sep-19 21:27:09

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries...

But the world has changed massively since then. I am a non EU citizen, if I fancy a weekend city break in Tallinn, Estonia for example, I have to travel from Scotland to London on a week day (taking at least one if not two days off work), apply in person at the Embassy, have proof of bank statements showing I have enough to cover X amount per day, have prebooked flights and accommodation and proof of this (money I would lose if a visa was refused) etc. The total time and cost of all this (train tickets to London, hotel in London, loss of 2 days pay/leave, cost of application at around £60) just to get a visa would be greater than that of the actual trip, so I simply don't take weekend breaks like that. Whereas you or anyone else with a UK passport, can simply hop on a flight from your nearest airport to wherever you fancy going whenever you feel like it. Seriously, you don't know how lucky you are!

As for living somewhere, as a non UK, non EU citizen, I would need proof of enough money to support myself for the duration of the long stay visa or a job lined up in advance, private health insurance, to own a property or have a rental contract in place prior to moving there and vast amounts of forms to fill in. And that's just for a 6 months to 1 year initial period, after that, in many countries (eg Spain) you need to prove a certain level of language proficiency and a whole lot more. Again, as a UK citizen (and therefore EU citizen) you don't need to do any of this (you do however need to register as a resident for stays longer than 90 days).

As for asylum, that's a completely separate issue to economic immigration. EU member or non EU member, the UK could agree to accept many more refugees than it has.

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