Talk

Advanced search

Elizabeth I??

(191 Posts)
malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:00:27

I’m trying to broaden my historical knowledge and I’m reading a bit about the Tudors and I was wondering if people thing that Elizabeth I thought her mum, Anne Boleyn was innocent of the trumped up charges her father Henry VIII accused her off to execute her as she had a locket with her and her mother’s portrait in which she wore until her death but she didn’t go back and change the law saying her parents marriage was legitimate like her elder sister Mary did when she was on the throne to her parents marriage.

So I’m asking do you think she thought her mother was innocent? Thanks all smile

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:49:19

Also does anyone know why Edward VI, their brother cut both Mary and Elizabeth out of the succession before he died?

I thought he cut Mary out because his older sister was a Catholic and he was a staunch Protestant but why skip Elizabeth who was also a Protestant (admittedly less staunch than he was) for Jane Grey?

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:51:44

I'm not sure people knew which way Elizabeth swung in terms of religion at the time when Edward died.

I think Jane was a much better bet in terms of the interests of Edward's uncles - they wanted to marry her off and keep her under their thumbs.

I feel so sorry for Jane. Her parents were awful and it sounds as if the only person who had time for her was her teacher.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:54:33

@SarahAndQuack But that doesn’t make sense to me? Elizabeth was raised in the Church of England and never had Catholic values or upbringing like Mary did, so why would her religious beliefs be questioned? But yes Jane Grey seems like she would have been much more meek and easily controlled. Poor child.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:58:00

Not really.

The Church of England as we have it now isn't Henry VIII's creation. Henry was pretty happily and staunchly Catholic. He just happened to be a cheeky fucker pragmatist who saw a way to achieve the divorce he wanted and get the money he wanted (by closing down monasteries). He didn't actually want to make changes to the theology or liturgy really.

It's only later on, with Edward and then with Elizabeth, that actual theological and liturgical changes get rolled out.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 21:58:26

Jane Grey was married off to Guildford Dudley, the son of Edwards’s uncle and Lord Protector. She was also directly descended from Henry VII, with no questions of legitimacy.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:00:14

(And, you've got to see Henry splitting with Rome in context. It wasn't that long ago that there had been rival popes - one in Rome and one in Avignon in France - and there had been centuries of people calling for monastic reform and Bibles in English and all sorts of things like that.

I would imagine when Henry declared he would no longer recognise the Pope's authority, plenty of people imagined it was just another bit of ruckus, not very different from other disruptions that had happened before.)

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:01:02

Ah okay makes sense now!

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:02:45

<bows>

grin

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:03:06

@sarah

gringrin

diddlesticks Sun 18-Aug-19 22:03:39

This thread is interesting, I don't know as much as I'd like to about the Tudors can people recommend a good book, tv programme or film that can educate me in a way that assumes I know nothing to begin?

My interest in this era was found by watching a horribly inaccurate teen drama on Netflix, although very entertaining, and I'd like to know the real history.

thenightsky Sun 18-Aug-19 22:03:41

I think that the Church of England and the Catholic Church were much closer in values than we, today, can imagine. It's difficult to imagine their world really as it so very different to how we live our lives today, such as how little autonomy women had and how much men dictated their lives.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:04:34

@diddlesticks Ooh which drama? I’ve probably seen it blush And yes could people please recommend books!

PicsInRed Sun 18-Aug-19 22:04:36

Jane Grey was married and her young husband would have taken charge - at his male relatives' instruction.

Patriarchy.

Elizabeth plainly knew her mother was innocent (as did all but her barking mad father) but she would have been far too politically savvy to undermine her predecessor's rule by effectively declaring him a liar and murderer.

FurrySlipperBoots Sun 18-Aug-19 22:05:31

God families are so complicated! All those feuds and politics. I always felt so sorry for Jane Grey, just an innocent victim of it all.

Freefrops Sun 18-Aug-19 22:06:31

"There is only One Jesus Christ and the rest is a dispute about trifles"..

Jelly or tinned raspberries?

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:06:41

Yes, I’ve always thought it quite sad how turbulent times were that most Mary and Elizabeth had to execute Jane Grey and MQoS who were both of their cousins

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:06:56

diddlesticks

John Guy’s work is excellent (but heavy).

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:07:03

@Freefrops gringrin

diddlesticks Sun 18-Aug-19 22:09:32

@malibuloving Oh please don't make me say it out loud. I'll be laughed at on this thread for sure!

Definitely wasn't Reign

AlexaAmbidextra Sun 18-Aug-19 22:10:40

I always think the supreme irony was that Henry had his marriage to Anne annulled just before her execution. Therefore, the charges of her adultery and treason no longer applied as according to Henry, their marriage was never legal in the first place.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sun 18-Aug-19 22:11:50

Jane Grey was very wronged.

IMO Henry knew deep down that Anne wasn’t guilty - he got an expert swordsman to execute her. I don’t think he did the same for Katherine Howard?

ArnoldBee Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:06

Basically Elizabeth had known turbulence all her life and although kept her mother's portrait and family close she also knew she was in dodgy ground bringing her up. She had to remind everyone that she was her father's daughter to ensure she stayed on the throne. Her claim could have very easily be put aside and rebellions ensued. She was very smart to keep her mouth shut.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:32

Therefore, the charges of her adultery and treason no longer applied as according to Henry, their marriage was never legal in the first place.

But in this case, he would simply argue that she inveigled him into adulterous sex, which is treason.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:41

@diddlesticks Oh God, I’ve watched all four series of Reign blush DD introduced it to me!

Runs away and hides

SkaterGrrrrl Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:48

diddlesticks Rather light reading (page turners rather than scholarly) but Philippa Gregory writes about the Tudors. The Forgotten Princess is good.

Join the discussion

Registering is free, quick, and means you can join in the discussion, watch threads, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Get started »