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Elizabeth I??

(191 Posts)
malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:00:27

I’m trying to broaden my historical knowledge and I’m reading a bit about the Tudors and I was wondering if people thing that Elizabeth I thought her mum, Anne Boleyn was innocent of the trumped up charges her father Henry VIII accused her off to execute her as she had a locket with her and her mother’s portrait in which she wore until her death but she didn’t go back and change the law saying her parents marriage was legitimate like her elder sister Mary did when she was on the throne to her parents marriage.

So I’m asking do you think she thought her mother was innocent? Thanks all smile

AnneElliott Sun 18-Aug-19 21:02:56

Elizabeth 1 is one of my all time heroes! Yes I think she thought she mother was innocent- it was clear she needed to be removed and the evidence of the affairs were needed to do that.

Elizabeth was also close to some of her mother's family so yes I believe she was very well aware of the likely truth of the matter.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:03:33

I think she probably knew her mother was innocent, but I think she was far too savvy to make public comments.

What change to the law are we talking, btw?

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:04:30

(As in, what do you think she could/should have done?)

AnneElliott Sun 18-Aug-19 21:05:39

I think she was advised not to get Parliament to rule her parents' marriage lawful. It would have opened up again the question of the authority of the pope which Elizabeth could well do without.

I love the quote from her about religion "There is only One Jesus Christ and the rest is a dispute about trifles". Such a pragmatic view.

Sorry I have gone on a bit blush

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:07:50

@AnneElliott I just immediately fell in love with her. I think she was simply ahead of her time with her views on religion and not having a desire ‘to make windows into men’s souls’

ethelfleda Sun 18-Aug-19 21:08:21

Watching with interest smile

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:09:14

@SarahAndQuack I’m afraid I’m not clued up enough to know the exact law but didn’t her sister go to parliament and state her parents marriage was lawful? I was wondering why Elizabeth didn’t do the same

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:12:47

I think she was simply ahead of her time with her views on religion and not having a desire ‘to make windows into men’s souls’

Oh, but this is so one-sided! She had masses of heretics executed during her reign.

malibu - but she didn't need to, did she? Mary needed to, as I understand it, because she was trying to broker relations with Catholic countries and she was on the marriage/children path. I don't know if Elizabeth ever meant to marry or not, but I don't think it was something that would have been quite as necessary to her as she clearly didn't have the same concerns about a husband, children, and uniting England with Catholic Europe.

AllFourOfThem Sun 18-Aug-19 21:16:17

I don’t think anyone genuinely believed Elizabeth I was guilty. I’ve also always thought that’s why Henry VIII’s guilt allowed her execution to be by sword, to be as accurate and painless as possible for her.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 21:18:25

I think it’s fairly obvious that Anne Boleyn didn’t shag a hundred men, including her brother. She may have been not a virgin when Henry targeted her. These women didn’t have much choice and Elizabeth I, being a Queen and not an idiot, would have known that.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:18:51

@SarahAndQuack True but I thought the majority of those executions happened after a lot of Catholic plots against her?

Besides, every ruler executed people back then and I thought her father and sister executed many more?

Likethebattle Sun 18-Aug-19 21:19:04

Possibly because if Katherine of Aragon was Henry’s lawful wife that meant his marriage to Anne was unlawful and there was no way around that.

Nanny0gg Sun 18-Aug-19 21:21:56

Henry only got rid of Katherine because she didn't give him a son. So there were no legal grounds for a divorce (till Henry moved the goalposts)
Tricky to do that a second time, so went for beheading.

Knittedfairies Sun 18-Aug-19 21:22:48

From what I've read, many people knew the charges were trumped up, but Elizabeth was far too pragmatic to risk stating it as fact.

Vibiano Sun 18-Aug-19 21:26:16

No one thought Anne Boleyn was guilty. Everyone knew it was nonsense but it was a way to get rid of her.
Henry VIII had the succession laid out in an Act of Parliament. Edward, then Mary then Elizabeth but officially Elizabeth and Mary were illegitimate.
Elizabeth didn't have the sentimental views that Mary did and Mary was trying to reverse the religious changes made by father and brother. The logical conclusion of which was that Henry VIII's first marriage was valid.
Elizabeth was not trying to turn the clock back and took the pragmatic approach of least said soonest mended.
She was queen by popular acclaim and by law. That was enough.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:30:07

malibu - I dunno, though, some of those plots were trumped up, I thought?

But yes, take your point. She did actually have a shitload of people executed, but she also reigned a long time, so per year I suppose it's not so bad.

I just think the 'windows into men's souls' is a bit Blairite.

Vibiano Sun 18-Aug-19 21:32:49

But the Catholic powers kind of upped the ante by telling Catholics they should kill her.
And radicalising people by training them abroad. Sounds familiar actually

MereDintofPandiculation Sun 18-Aug-19 21:38:28

Henry got his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled in order to be able to marry Anne, which he wouldn't have been able to do had he had a lawful wife still living. Therefore getting the marriage reinstated would strengthen Mary's claim to the throne, as the legitimate, not bastard, child of Henry.

Henry had Anne beheaded on a charge of adultery, and therefore had no need to annul the marriage, and as far as I know, it wasn't. Therefore Elizabeth had no need to get it declared lawful.

That's my understanding of the situation, as a non-historian.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:40:36

@mere

Ah that explains it. Thank you grin

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:42:15

No, mere, Elizabeth was declared illegitimate too. The marriage between her parents was annulled before Anne was executed.

BumbleBeee69 Sun 18-Aug-19 21:43:43

love Queen Elizabeth 1 and her story in just incredible, I love Queen Victoria's story too.. and yes I agree.. Ann Boleyn was stitched up like a kipper.. good and proper. flowers

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:44:42

@vibano - yes, but how secure do you think Mary felt in the context of Lutheran/Calvinist centres of power? There were plenty of people keen to see her dead, too. After all she did have to take the crown back from Jane Grey.

I just don't think they were that different.

MsFrosty Sun 18-Aug-19 21:47:24

She ascended because of her father's will which was the last uncontested document for the line of succession.

However Catholics hated elizabeth and saw Mary stuart as the one true heir and the pope denunciation of elizabeth was severely damaging.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:49:00

Btw, do you know the horrible story about the doctor who was executed for plotting to poison Elizabeth? He was Jewish by birth and there's quite a lot of suspicion that he was framed, and there was a massive amount of anti-Semitic propaganda around his death. He was a Catholic convert. The person who accused him was the Earl of Essex, who later on tried to take Elizabeth's throne by force. Bit sus, that.

My point is, I can see Elizabeth wanting/needing to scare people into compliance, but I think she would have been perfectly happy to use bigoted sentiments to her own ends.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:49:19

Also does anyone know why Edward VI, their brother cut both Mary and Elizabeth out of the succession before he died?

I thought he cut Mary out because his older sister was a Catholic and he was a staunch Protestant but why skip Elizabeth who was also a Protestant (admittedly less staunch than he was) for Jane Grey?

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:51:44

I'm not sure people knew which way Elizabeth swung in terms of religion at the time when Edward died.

I think Jane was a much better bet in terms of the interests of Edward's uncles - they wanted to marry her off and keep her under their thumbs.

I feel so sorry for Jane. Her parents were awful and it sounds as if the only person who had time for her was her teacher.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 21:54:33

@SarahAndQuack But that doesn’t make sense to me? Elizabeth was raised in the Church of England and never had Catholic values or upbringing like Mary did, so why would her religious beliefs be questioned? But yes Jane Grey seems like she would have been much more meek and easily controlled. Poor child.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 21:58:00

Not really.

The Church of England as we have it now isn't Henry VIII's creation. Henry was pretty happily and staunchly Catholic. He just happened to be a cheeky fucker pragmatist who saw a way to achieve the divorce he wanted and get the money he wanted (by closing down monasteries). He didn't actually want to make changes to the theology or liturgy really.

It's only later on, with Edward and then with Elizabeth, that actual theological and liturgical changes get rolled out.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 21:58:26

Jane Grey was married off to Guildford Dudley, the son of Edwards’s uncle and Lord Protector. She was also directly descended from Henry VII, with no questions of legitimacy.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:00:14

(And, you've got to see Henry splitting with Rome in context. It wasn't that long ago that there had been rival popes - one in Rome and one in Avignon in France - and there had been centuries of people calling for monastic reform and Bibles in English and all sorts of things like that.

I would imagine when Henry declared he would no longer recognise the Pope's authority, plenty of people imagined it was just another bit of ruckus, not very different from other disruptions that had happened before.)

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:01:02

Ah okay makes sense now!

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:02:45

<bows>

grin

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:03:06

@sarah

gringrin

diddlesticks Sun 18-Aug-19 22:03:39

This thread is interesting, I don't know as much as I'd like to about the Tudors can people recommend a good book, tv programme or film that can educate me in a way that assumes I know nothing to begin?

My interest in this era was found by watching a horribly inaccurate teen drama on Netflix, although very entertaining, and I'd like to know the real history.

thenightsky Sun 18-Aug-19 22:03:41

I think that the Church of England and the Catholic Church were much closer in values than we, today, can imagine. It's difficult to imagine their world really as it so very different to how we live our lives today, such as how little autonomy women had and how much men dictated their lives.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:04:34

@diddlesticks Ooh which drama? I’ve probably seen it blush And yes could people please recommend books!

PicsInRed Sun 18-Aug-19 22:04:36

Jane Grey was married and her young husband would have taken charge - at his male relatives' instruction.

Patriarchy.

Elizabeth plainly knew her mother was innocent (as did all but her barking mad father) but she would have been far too politically savvy to undermine her predecessor's rule by effectively declaring him a liar and murderer.

FurrySlipperBoots Sun 18-Aug-19 22:05:31

God families are so complicated! All those feuds and politics. I always felt so sorry for Jane Grey, just an innocent victim of it all.

Freefrops Sun 18-Aug-19 22:06:31

"There is only One Jesus Christ and the rest is a dispute about trifles"..

Jelly or tinned raspberries?

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:06:41

Yes, I’ve always thought it quite sad how turbulent times were that most Mary and Elizabeth had to execute Jane Grey and MQoS who were both of their cousins

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:06:56

diddlesticks

John Guy’s work is excellent (but heavy).

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:07:03

@Freefrops gringrin

diddlesticks Sun 18-Aug-19 22:09:32

@malibuloving Oh please don't make me say it out loud. I'll be laughed at on this thread for sure!

Definitely wasn't Reign

AlexaAmbidextra Sun 18-Aug-19 22:10:40

I always think the supreme irony was that Henry had his marriage to Anne annulled just before her execution. Therefore, the charges of her adultery and treason no longer applied as according to Henry, their marriage was never legal in the first place.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sun 18-Aug-19 22:11:50

Jane Grey was very wronged.

IMO Henry knew deep down that Anne wasn’t guilty - he got an expert swordsman to execute her. I don’t think he did the same for Katherine Howard?

ArnoldBee Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:06

Basically Elizabeth had known turbulence all her life and although kept her mother's portrait and family close she also knew she was in dodgy ground bringing her up. She had to remind everyone that she was her father's daughter to ensure she stayed on the throne. Her claim could have very easily be put aside and rebellions ensued. She was very smart to keep her mouth shut.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:32

Therefore, the charges of her adultery and treason no longer applied as according to Henry, their marriage was never legal in the first place.

But in this case, he would simply argue that she inveigled him into adulterous sex, which is treason.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:41

@diddlesticks Oh God, I’ve watched all four series of Reign blush DD introduced it to me!

Runs away and hides

SkaterGrrrrl Sun 18-Aug-19 22:12:48

diddlesticks Rather light reading (page turners rather than scholarly) but Philippa Gregory writes about the Tudors. The Forgotten Princess is good.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:14:25

@GotToGoMyOwnWay Yes, Anne Boleyn got an expert French swordsman whereas KH had the usual axeman I believe

SirJamesTalbot Sun 18-Aug-19 22:14:44

Im not sure Lady Jane Grey was as innocent as all that when she was proclaimed Queen. She was staunchly Protestant and was a Royal great niece wuth ambitious parents. She would know how courts worked. This could have been her big opportunity. Unfortunately for her, natural justice prevailed and Mary triumphed as the lawful heir without too much trouble.

AnneElliott Sun 18-Aug-19 22:15:03

I recommend the books by Alison Weir. She's written a number on the Tudors and I really enjoy them.

diddlesticks Sun 18-Aug-19 22:15:52

Ah phew @malibuloving! Everyone seems so knowledgeable and intellectual on this thread and I know Reign isn't exactly historically accurate. I really enjoyed it though and it introduced an interest in history I had never had before.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:16:32

Im not sure Lady Jane Grey was as innocent as all that when she was proclaimed Queen. She was staunchly Protestant and was a Royal great niece wuth ambitious parents. She would know how courts worked. This could have been her big opportunity. Unfortunately for her, natural justice prevailed and Mary triumphed as the lawful heir without too much trouble.

She was a kid with no choice as to who she married or whether she became Queen.

Thatnovembernight Sun 18-Aug-19 22:16:47

I think she knew her mother was innocent but was also aware that she was a controversial figure and didn’t want to be seen as taking sides, even so long after her death.

For me the real intrigue is whether Katherine of Aragon and Prince Arthur did/didn’t consummate their marriage. I find it so unlikely. She was only allowed to marry Henry on the basis that she had not slept with his brother. If she lied then technically Mary would have been illegitimate etc etc

ArnoldBee Sun 18-Aug-19 22:17:07

Edward didn't want Jane Grey on the throne his will or device was written for her male heirs to inherit hiwever when he died she didn't have any so had to amend his will. Elizabeth as we know wasn't married at this point and he wanted to carry on the male stability issue that plagued his father. If he had legitimized Mary and Elizabeth during his reign things would have got very complicated especially for him.

diddlesticks Sun 18-Aug-19 22:17:35

Thanks to those who recommended books. I'm excited to request them from the library.

SirJamesTalbot Sun 18-Aug-19 22:17:40

I think Anne was condemned as a witch, she could have been burned alive but this was commuted to beheading. She was doomed and probably knew it from the moment she was arrested.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:17:58

What's 'natural justice' there? confused

It's murky at best.

I agree JG probably wasn't an innocent sighing little thing, but her parents were pretty obviously coercive bastards (like all the other parents in this story, I suppose).

I don't see there being any particular moral justice to a 16 year old girl being put to death.

SkaterGrrrrl Sun 18-Aug-19 22:18:18

"@SarahAndQuack But that doesn’t make sense to me? Elizabeth was raised in the Church of England and never had Catholic values or upbringing like Mary did, so why would her religious beliefs be questioned?"

Her position was precarious ...people were executed for being Catholic or Protestant ... she didn't know who was going to rise to the throne. She had to dissemble.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:18:31

@AnneElliott Is Children of England or the Lady Elizabeth any good?

@diddlesticks
It actually inspired me, along with The Tudor’s, to learn actual accurate historical knowledge! Quite ironic

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:19:45

Thatnovembernight

He was only 14. And not particularly healthy, as far as I understand. They were only married 6 months. The consummation of their marriage would have been planned. But I agree with you, it seems a little unlikely.

QueenOfThorns Sun 18-Aug-19 22:20:09

Elizabeth by David Starkey is good. It amazed me how many letters and other documents from the period survive, so the actual words of these figures can still be read!

Branster Sun 18-Aug-19 22:20:10

diddlesticks I read all the books by Alison Weir and Phillipa Gregory. I did not learn English history at school and this was a topic quite unknown to me. The books gave me a direction to get more independent in-depth knowledge on this subject and I know more about the Tudors and the two generations before than my entire English born and bread family!
They are very easy to read but they have very useful references and there were a couple of books of actual history study which I found interesting.
I particularly like the way history plays out across the world pre 1900s and how different people and nations interacted with each other. I’m forever choosing an era and a country trying to learn more and aiming to fit the pieces together. I found fiction on a particular history subject draws me in to try and discover the real history on my own.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:20:54

Everyone seems so knowledgeable and intellectual on this thread and I know Reign isn't exactly historically accurate. I really enjoyed it though and it introduced an interest in history I had never had before.

@diddlesticks, I got into history/the Tudors after reading a totally inappropriately explicit, bonk-buster novel about Elizabeth (in which she's a shag-a-minute type), when I was 12 or so. It had somehow found its way into our school library. grin

Mothership4two Sun 18-Aug-19 22:22:11

She was politically savvy so why rock the boat? Anne Boleyn was very unpopular (and many thought she was a witch), so she probably didn't want any public connection to her. She had grown up in a precarious position and would have been well aware of her father's foibles so I expect she realised her mother was innocent. She wouldn't have wanted anything to be used against her or her position as regent.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:22:15

David Starkey's books are semi-ok, but DS himself is an utter, utter knob. Really really. He's made some horrible comments about women historians and seems to be racist as well. Just for what it's worth.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:22:34

Does anyone know who the boy/man who had to be executed for Katherine to come over from Spain and marry Arthur, and later his brother? It was one of Henry and Arthur’s mothers York/Plantagenet cousins wasn’t it? Or did I make that up blush

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:22:51

And I love The Tudors show! You can’t love the period and hate that show, even with its inaccuracies.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:23:18

malibuloving

Edward of Warwick

noodlenosefraggle Sun 18-Aug-19 22:23:33

skatergrrl I'm in the middle of a Phillip pa Gregory obsession. I'm on the 'cousins war' series. I didn't know much about the Wars of the Roses and the start of the Tudors, but its fascinating. More Mediaeval 'The Crown' than documentary, but pretty fascinating anyway.

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sun 18-Aug-19 22:24:13

I don’t believe KofA marriage to Arthur was consummated. Katherine was deeply religious & swore she was a maid (ie virgin) when she married Henry - I don’t think she’d have lied as she would have thought her soul was in peril. Unless she went to confession straight after of course.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:25:22

@herculepoirot2
Ahh at least I’m not the only one then! Edward of Warwick founds familiar, was he siblings with Margaret Pole?

CaveMum Sun 18-Aug-19 22:25:48

“Innocent Traitor” is a very good (historical fiction) book about Lady Jane Grey.

I remember watching the Helena Bonham-Carter film about her at school in the mid-90s and becoming utterly fascinated by her.

CalliopeCat Sun 18-Aug-19 22:25:50

Elizabeth never had much security - her mother was murdered when she was a child, her father could have had he shoved in any number of places at any time so she learned to be careful and measured about what she said and did. Her first lesson was basically protect yourself at all costs (which brings up the cult of Elizabeth and all that which was about managing and protecting her image to keep her in power.)

Its part of the reason Mary Queen of Scots was killed--Elizabeth couldn't risk anything that might make her position unsafe - which is again why she could never get married--being a proper wife would have meant bowing down to her husband and a queen couldn't do that. Also she was literally risking her life if she got pregnant which again she couldn't do.

Look into the Cult of Elizabeth if you want to understand her a bit more.

www.historyextra.com/people/elizabeth-i/ has loads of stuff to get you started.

diddlesticks Sun 18-Aug-19 22:26:14

@Branster Yes that's like me! I find an area of interest and spend the next 6 months researching and finding out as much as I can about it!

IcedPurple Sun 18-Aug-19 22:26:18

she had a locket with her and her mother’s portrait in which she wore until her death

Is there any actual evidence of this?

GotToGoMyOwnWay Sun 18-Aug-19 22:26:48

I seem to remember that they were descended from George Duke of Clarence? Executed Brother of Edward IV IIRC.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:27:58

Edward of Warwick founds familiar, was he siblings with Margaret Pole?

Yes.

Sobeyondthehills Sun 18-Aug-19 22:28:50

tv programme 6 wives with Lucy Worsley.

I really enjoyed it and it was quite light

SirJamesTalbot Sun 18-Aug-19 22:29:44

She was a kid with no choice as to who she married or whether she became Queen.

She was but she was also a Tudor descendant and had spent protracted periods of time in Royal circles. She would have had a very good idea what being made Queen could entail (if she could hold back her husband from becoming the de facto ruler).

PookieDo Sun 18-Aug-19 22:29:47

I absolutely love the Tudor’s (not just the TV show) and how they changed history/religion in the UK

Hampton Court is the most amazing place and I actually felt strange standing in the chapel... also the portraits in the national gallery are amazing

I feel sorry for AB. I think she was a pawn in her fathers plan from very young and tried to assert herself when she had some power, sadly this backfired on her. I think she was probably a clever and amazing woman but she probably had not had the best start in life what with her parents virtually pimping her and her sister out, a lot of the rumours about her stemmed from her time in France where I think she was very young and trying to make her father happy.

ElBandito Sun 18-Aug-19 22:30:05

Antonia Fraser wrote about the wives of Henry VIII
Alison Weir wrote an Elizabeth I biography
But there are many, many more books available including one by the ‘delightful’ David Starkey.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:30:20

Apparently the locket ring is held at Chequers? Also I read that the ring had the Seymour family symbol on the back, does anyone know why that might be considering they didn’t like Anne Boleyn and tried to put Jane Seymour in her place?

Supersimpkin Sun 18-Aug-19 22:30:30

What really did for Anne Boleyn was, ironically given how much she'd hoped for it, Katharine of Aragon dying.

Henry couldn't get shot of two living wives, but the minute K of A was dead Anne as sole wife was vulnerable. Their marriage was already rocky after Elizabeth the princess (not the prince) was born, and two miscarriages did for her.

Elizabeth was only queen thanks to Henry's Succession Acts (various of them) that named her as a future monarch, so she wouldn't have been likely to start overturning the other decrees her father made.

Elizabeth famously never spoke about her mother, but she was very good to her maternal family, indeed rather keen on making sure they behaved themselves as the top nobility she ensured they were.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:32:51

@Supersimpkin That’s very interesting, what did she do for her mother’s family in regards to treating them well?

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:33:35

She was but she was also a Tudor descendant and had spent protracted periods of time in Royal circles. She would have had a very good idea what being made Queen could entail (if she could hold back her husband from becoming the de facto ruler).

She had no choice. It doesn’t matter whether she knew what the court was like. She literally could not have said no to Dudley, because she would have been thrown into a convent or married off to some senile old fool, or murdered.

BMW6 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:33:47

Perkin Warbeck. Claimed to be Richard (son of Edward IV) who was supposed to have disappeared in the Tower with his brother Edward (who was heir apparent).

Henry VII had him executed at the behest of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain before they would permit their daughter Katerine to come to England and marry Arthur.

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:33:48

She would have had a very good idea what being made Queen could entail (if she could hold back her husband from becoming the de facto ruler).

How could she have had a good idea? She'd have had no precedent for it, would she? The last woman who attempted to rule England in her own right was Matilda (and that didn't go too well).

Rachelover40 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:34:21

Yes I'm sure she thought her mother was innocent of what she was accused of - and she was. Also she was a very young woman, manipulated by her father and uncle who were power hungry. I have great sympathy for her (& the dirty old man's other wives).

IcedPurple Sun 18-Aug-19 22:34:33

What really did for Anne Boleyn was, ironically given how much she'd hoped for it, Katharine of Aragon dying.

Yup.

And if only Ann had had a healthy son, everything would have been different. Sure, Henry would have shagged around, but so long as her son lived, Ann's position would have been secure and she'd have gone on to be queen mother. It was not to be.

PookieDo Sun 18-Aug-19 22:34:57

I am fascinated by Henry also. He was never meant to be king and he was basically a fuck boy when he was young and dashing, 😂 easily angered and manipulated by all the powerful men around him, he was so greedy and extravagant.

herculepoirot2 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:35:23

Henry VII had him executed at the behest of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain before they would permit their daughter Katerine to come to England and marry Arthur.

Actually I don’t think that’s right. He was executed at the same time, but the stipulation was that Edward of Warwick be executed, as the surviving heir of Edward III.

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:36:16

Is there any chance that Perkin Warbeck was Richard? It hints at that in the White Queen apparently but doesn’t Gregory say that it was just her imagination?

SarahAndQuack Sun 18-Aug-19 22:36:34

I've never thought Henry had a terribly high sex drive. I know he had an illegitimate son, but compared with some kings he didn't really shag around that much. I reckon he liked the romance but the actual sex, not so much.

(I have no real evidence here, just a hunch.)

malibuloving Sun 18-Aug-19 22:37:38

Yes didn’t he wait years for Anne to finally have sex with him?

SirJamesTalbot Sun 18-Aug-19 22:37:51

I don't see there being any particular moral justice to a 16 year old girl being put to death

I wasn't referring to Jane's death. I was referring to Mary claiming the throne. Mary was after all, the heir to Edward. The Protestant faction actually triggered Jane's death whose death sentence had been suspended when Sir Thomas Wyatt decided to rise against Mary, promoting Elizabeth's cause. With "friends" like that...

BMW6 Sun 18-Aug-19 22:38:19

Sorry, I got myself muddled up there - of course Edward of Warwick was the victim for Katherine's marriage

Supersimpkin Sun 18-Aug-19 22:38:23

@malibuloving - E arranged all the marriages (nb for both sexes, an arranged marriage is arranged for men too, at the risk of stating the obvious) & dished out posh £££ jobs at court. She could have left them to stew in the country. She also hit the roof every now and then if one of them misbehaved.

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