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To leave one niece out?

(327 Posts)
HipHipHippoo Thu 18-Apr-19 23:34:28

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger angry and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand hmm

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

AriadnePersephoneCloud Thu 18-Apr-19 23:38:28

I think yanbu, I wouldn't want to take her. That said perhaps you could put it that you think 12yo would benefit from some mum alone time. Then her mum could say the same to 12yo.

TitianaTitsling Thu 18-Apr-19 23:41:21

You clearly have intense dislike for her so probably not a good idea. I can't remember from all the other threads where you have posted about how much of a horrible child she is, if she has any SEN herself?

ThomasRichard Thu 18-Apr-19 23:41:54

She sounds like a very troubled child. It would probably do her some good to have 1:1 time with her mum. And I wouldn’t be taking her anywhere.

Snappedandfarted2019 Thu 18-Apr-19 23:42:32

biscuit

mummmy2017 Thu 18-Apr-19 23:43:22

As the mum, but phrase it that you feel 12 year old might like some me time with mummy, before she becomes a teenager and In to boys.
Also it might change her once she sees mum is no different to her when alone.

CSIblonde Thu 18-Apr-19 23:43:44

What consequences for this behaviour are happening? If there aren't any, it will continue. I assume she's not acting out to some trauma or difficulty elsewhere at home/school? That's different kettle of fish). I'd probably not include her this time only, explain why(it sounds exhausting for all) : & get some reward & consequences going re her poor behaviour. She sounds desperate for attention, I'd up her one on one time with Mum too as siblings with problems often make time & attention limited & resentment festers.

Neolara Thu 18-Apr-19 23:46:34

It sounds like the 12 "yo could be desperate for attention from her mum and has worked out a pretty terrible but possibley highly effective way to achieve this.. A week with her mum one on one might be just what she needs. It might also give your sister the chance to try to talk to her dd about how she feels about her sister. And a week with you might give the others some respite.

HipHipHippoo Thu 18-Apr-19 23:47:33

No, I want to clarify to her that I don't want to take her because of her behaviour. Her parents never call her out on it or enforce any consequences, I think she needs to be shown it's unacceptable.

TitianaTitsling Thu 18-Apr-19 23:47:50

I've re-read the post and why does some of it get you so agitated? Like the moon bit? Does that really matter so much? Has it got to the stage where ANYTHING she does you will see negatively?

scatteredglitter Thu 18-Apr-19 23:50:24

I remember the other tread
She knows her sibling has additional needs and is bullying and taunting her and her mum is not really dealing with it.

It s likely the 12 year old needs some specific therapeutic input herself. However it really did sound from your previous treads and this that the younger siblings are really really thawarted bullied teased and downtrodden by the 12'year old (tbh from your deacription should a bit neglected but over indulged spiteful and unkind - without consequences for any of her downright cruel actions ).

I think when you see the younger child with obvious low weight stress and additional needs, and that younger child needs protecting and minding, then it is easier to empathise with the
Younger child.
But it sounds like the 12 year old needs so much help too.

Both need a champion (along with their parents of course!). It s wonderful you are able to step into the role to help the younger siblings and offer them time away from the stress.
Like previous posters suggest it will
Also offer the 12 year old time for 1-1 with the parent.

Does your sister have any insight into his thiw cruel the 12 year olds behaviour is ?

HeddaGarbled Thu 18-Apr-19 23:51:37

I wonder whether it’s a better idea to take the 12 year old camping with you but not the other two? Two younger sisters, one with autism and one not much more than a baby are her competition for her parents’ love and attention in a way that her cousins aren’t. Plus it will give the rest of her family a little break from her difficult behaviour.

Ewitsahooman Thu 18-Apr-19 23:53:33

However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

It sounds like she desperately needs a dose of her mum's full attention. She has one sibling with SN, another sibling who is at a particularly demanding age, and she herself is coming up to a fairly major stage of her development and it becomes quite clear that she quite probably has some emotional needs that aren't being met.

Have you always disliked her or is it a recent thing? You don't seem to have a single positive thing to say about the girl.

Singlenotsingle Thu 18-Apr-19 23:53:39

Well can't you say her behaviour is unacceptable and you don't want to take her, AND you feel she would benefit from some time alone with her dm. Hopefully it will do her some good, (and also give dn7 a bit of a break).

Ayemama Thu 18-Apr-19 23:53:41

Probably an unpopular opinion but she sounds a bit like she’s struggling with lack of attention, not to mention all the horrible hormones that will be starting to kick in around now.
It must be really hard having a younger sibling with a learning difficulty as they always need more help and attention then you and they don’t grow out of that stage as quickly as other children normally do and she’s too young to fully understand this, then add a toddler with all the time and attention they require into the mix.
Your sister must be supper mum to juggle all of this but I can see why you oldest niece might be feeling a bit left out.
I think you should just take the younger two away but not to get them a rest from their sister more to give their sister a chance to feel valued again, she obviously needs to know she’s just as much loved and cherished as her sisters are.

Chocmallows Thu 18-Apr-19 23:54:54

My DD, 13, is moody regularly. I think this may be more to do with hormones. At this age children think that they are practically adults and can become bossy and demanding. Perhaps your sister is trying to ignore the negative behaviour rather than provide too much attention.

Having said that, personally I talk with my DD and think that has quicker and more long-term benefits.

Ewitsahooman Thu 18-Apr-19 23:55:38

No, I want to clarify to her that I don't want to take her because of her behaviour. Her parents never call her out on it or enforce any consequences, I think she needs to be shown it's unacceptable.

She's not your child and that is not your place. Of one of my siblings took that approach with one of my DC then I'd be telling them to go fuck themselves.

Drogosnextwife Thu 18-Apr-19 23:57:04

She is far too old to be behaving like that. Yanbu, I wouldn't take her anywhere.

Tavannach Thu 18-Apr-19 23:57:27

There's something well wrong there. It's attention seeking behaviour and I agree that some serious 1 to 1 time and fun with her mum would probably help.
Try not to let her see that her behaviour irritates you. The girl seems deeply unhappy.

SandyY2K Thu 18-Apr-19 23:57:42

You don't need to tell the 12 yo, it because of her behaviour.

You can say that to her mum, but you risk her becoming defensive and not allowing you to take any of the girls...so tread carefully.

If you're close to your sister, can you not discuss your observations with her?

I have to say...the toy thing would have upset me...and I would have gone and bought something nice for the 7 yo niece to make up for it.

Her behaviour is bullying. I find it annoying that parents like her mum don't do anything about it.

Sunshine1239 Fri 19-Apr-19 00:02:23

Wow you sound so mean
I have a dd similar age and feel so sad that you dislike her so much
Mind your own business, it sounds like she is likely left out - it’s ifteb the elder who’s blamed and told off etc

As aside, there’s no way I’d let you split my kids up, not a chance and you’re being vindictive

Sunshine1239 Fri 19-Apr-19 00:03:07

It’s always

dontleavemerhisway Fri 19-Apr-19 00:06:04

I think some posters need to read your other thread

asprinklingofsugar Fri 19-Apr-19 00:11:28

Here's a link to your past thread about this: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3548785-To-think-this-goes-beyond-sibling-bickering

I remember reading it and agree YANBU - and for those that haven't read the previous thread it sounds as though 12 yo actually gets more attention than the other two

Ewitsahooman Fri 19-Apr-19 00:19:24

Would that be the thread where posters called a 12yo child evil and a twat? Yeah. I read that. And I stand by my comments that the niece obviously has unmet needs and her parents should be exploring what they are, and that the OP doesn't have a single positive thing to say about her.

AcrossthePond55 Fri 19-Apr-19 00:20:36

I'd tell her mum the truth, that you won't be taking the 12 yr old because of her behaviour. But I'd leave it up to her mum to tell the 12 yr old whatever she wants regarding the reason.

I think, though, that you need to realize that telling your sister the truth may adversely affect your relationship with her and thus your contact with your two younger nieces. Are you ready for that?

FifisLovelyApron Fri 19-Apr-19 00:20:58

I think you should offer the younger girls as much support as possible. I was a younger sibling in a similar situation and it was hell having a bully in my own family.

But honestly it is best to frame your approach as other said above. If the parents favour the eldest child, it's better to play on that and the you can focus on giving the kids a nice getaway and some peace.

LillithsFamiliar Fri 19-Apr-19 00:21:20

I think you underestimate how difficult this all must be for the 12-yr-old and you're attributing a lot of malice to actions that could be normal sibling rivalry. Do you spend as much effort looking for positives in her behaviour as you spend noting the negatives?
She probably would benefit from one-to-one time with her mum but not with the proviso that you get to be a bitch to her. She isn't your child and if you struggle so much to spend time with her perhaps you should scale back your involvement with your DSIS' family.

Ewitsahooman Fri 19-Apr-19 00:25:21

And how would you feel if your sister was talking this way about your 5yo?

Try being supportive rather than negative.

OwnerOfThatChocolateBar Fri 19-Apr-19 00:26:07

I would take the younger two and make a point to the 12 yo that she isn't invited because she can't behave and that it's a treat the other two are getting for their good behaviour and she's not being left home for some quality time with her mother as a reward.
Little shits like this need to learn manners and how to behave like a decent human and at 12 she should at least know the basics

mummmy2017 Fri 19-Apr-19 00:29:47

Ok read another of your threads ..
Your 12 year old niece can't help it .
Horrible as this is too you, there is nothing you can do to stop this, no pills or potions will help, your niece has no empathy, so nothing you can do will stop her..
She has a cruel streak, that means she thinks something as does it.
She will cause pain, upset to her sisters because something belongs to her so they can't have it . She will be Jealous if things she sees. So fine with friends, copies their social leads, but the second she comes home her sister are trespassing on her space, even having contact with mummy, who belongs to her, so she will punish them

LillithsFamiliar Fri 19-Apr-19 00:29:49

The irony of calling a 12-yr-old a little shit but saying they need to learn how to behave like a decent human being grin
Well, OP, if you want to potentially rupture the relationship with your sister but gain the support of adults who call children shits, then go ahead with your plan.

dangerrabbit Fri 19-Apr-19 00:31:14

Yeah, my uncle and aunt used to do that to me.

Orangeballon Fri 19-Apr-19 00:32:31

Would it not be better to focus on your own child and leave your sister to manage her own family?

mummmy2017 Fri 19-Apr-19 00:34:21

And yes she will be upset, for the two seconds you tell her off , but in her head not her fault, hence the sleeping bag and items .. your fault as technically it was not on.. but by.
Oh and the second she turns round , the telling off is gone from her head.

My. Eldest was like this ..now at uni,. She admits it ,can see it, but says nothing I did would ever have stopped it. Yes I was strick and fair....

OwlBeThere Fri 19-Apr-19 00:45:54

shes clearly desperate for attention. shes literally screaming out for someone to notice her and when you are a child that doesn't feel loved as much as those around you, any attention is better than none.
i was that child. different situation, but i had an older brother who my dad clearly chose to spend time with over me. a mum who was preoccupied with a new baby, my stepmum the same and my stepdad who didn't care i was alive. so, when being intensely good all the time didnt work, i then tried being annoying. limited success.
then, i was really unwell after getting my tonsils out and i finally had tons of one to one time with my mum, my dad chose to come and see me, not take my brother to rugby and even my stepdad asked if i was ok. and that was when te lightbulb went off, so after that i would pretend to be ill. i would deliberately throw myself down flights of stairs. one time i pulled a massive brick off a wall onto myself.
so, anyway, my point is. a child like that is craving being the centre of someones world. does it make it any less annnoying? no. but i think taking her siblings away and giving her some time alone with her mum sounds an excellent idea!

BlackCatSleeping Fri 19-Apr-19 00:52:18

I agree that it would probably be better for you to offer to take the 12 y o sometimes and give them a break from each other. She does sound desperate for attention and jealous of her sister. You will probably find that she’s a lot nicer away from her family dynamic.

archivearmadillo Fri 19-Apr-19 00:57:56

I've just read the other thread - the OP clearly absolutely loathes, detests and despises the 12 year old and adores the 7 year old who 8s bright, talented, sweet, adorable, hard working and also a heartbreaking little waif.

The op sounds pretty unpleasant herself to have such loathing for a child. There's no way on earth the 12 year old doesn't know that her heavily over involved aunt absolutely detests her and adores her sister.

It also sounds as though the older child may also be autistic.

Either way the OP's sister would be a fool to let someone as nasty as the op have any more contact with her 12 year old, or take any of the children away camping.

TheFormidableMrsC Fri 19-Apr-19 00:58:47

Hi OP, giving a perspective as an ASD parent here...12 yo sounds awful, I agree, but I can absolutely imagine how her life is with her sister. She seems resentful and angry and I get that. I went through something fairly similar with my own kids, there is a 13 year age gap...and during the difficult teen times, my DD was a nightmare..she just used to dismiss her ASD brother's issues as "being a brat" and on one occasion hit him because as far as she was concerned he "needed discipline" and I "wasn't doing it". That only happened once, I put her firmly in her place with that one. However, she did always respond well to one to one with me...spending a bit of time together, not having her brother and his issues interrupting everything. I wonder if maybe your niece would benefit from some time like that with her mum? In which case you need to handle this differently....so that it's not a punishment, but a break for everybody else...and her. She's 12, her hormones will be off the scale too. I also wonder about SEN given how you describe her behaviour at times. I think you need to handle this really carefully. FWIW, my DD is now my best co-parent at 21, she's grown up, understands, is brilliant with her brother. It's a difficult period but it will adjust eventually.

ilikebeckerinmyoldage Fri 19-Apr-19 00:59:24

Reward her with her mums full attention?! Wtf. She's a kid. Of course she's entitled to her mum's full attention. She does the things she does for attention, any attention is attention even if it's negative. She has two younger siblings and one with SEN - how much one on one time do you think she gets?

Her parents need to put a stop to her bullying her younger sister, but they also need to help her - she's a kid and clearly troubled.

TheFormidableMrsC Fri 19-Apr-19 01:02:46

@archivearmadillo Well that puts a different spin on things!

rose789 Fri 19-Apr-19 01:13:11

How will you manage with 5 children camping, even without your oldest niece?
Your dd has possible PDA, your 7 yo niece is autistic. Add a 2 year old and 2 other children into the mix I can’t imagine it would be a relaxing holiday.

LagunaBubbles Fri 19-Apr-19 01:22:49

Looks like it's typical MN where a bully will receive more sympathy than their victim. hmm

Takethebuscuitandthesink Fri 19-Apr-19 01:38:18

In all honesty I think it isn’t really your place I think you may be overstepping the mark a little. Many of the “incidents” in question seem incredibly minor and for you to present it in the way you did suggests to me that you are desperate to have something bad to say about her. Having read one of your past threads I do feel sorry for the 7yo but I would question how you know all this- you seem way over invested. It is not unreasonable to not want to take her camping as clearly you don’t get on and this would spoil your enjoyment but I would tread carefully as you could cause a rift with your sister. Next time you see this happening remember it is not your issue and unless someone is in risk of being injured you should stay well out and just leave it to the parents.

MitziTheTabbyIsMyOverlord Fri 19-Apr-19 01:57:27

I remember your other thread, but can't remember if I posted on it or not (new UN, so it wouldn't show).

I don't like posting on a thread where I'm just agreeing with PPs, but this thread is a bit split, so here's my views:

I understand why you have issues with the 12 yr old (I have a DNeice who is incredibly full on, and indulged by her parents. While her older brother, who is a sweetie, is generally ignored in favour of his much 'louder' sister).

What I'd say is that while the 12 yr old probably seems very old in the context of your family, she's actually still REALLY young. She IS still a baby (and her behaviour re-inforces this). She really does have the same needs her younger/sweeter siblings do. But the 'curse' of the oldest child is that you're just expected to step up. And things that are forgiven in the younger ones (because "they're only young") are not forgiven in you. (I am an older child, so I do really get this).

I'm not excusing the behaviour, but I AM saying all behaviour is for a reason; and this reason is clear to a lot of PPs.

You seem to want the 12 yr old to be 'punished' That's not very nice of you. And, btw, punishments generally don't work. Kindness works much better.
What do you ACTUALLY want? Something punitive for someone you have issues with vs changes in behaviour?
If you WANT the 12 yr old to be punished, then set up scenarios where this will be more likely to happen.
IF what you actually want is for the situation to change, think creatively about how the behaviour of adults might bring about this change. And it MIGHT be about the 12 yr old having some 1:1 time with mum. NOT as a punishment, but as a lovely thing for them both.

I really, REALLY suggest this is sorted before she's at an age/stage where sex, alcohol, drugs (etc) come into the equation. ESP as her parents are (understandably) busy with the younger ones. This isn't something where everyone should just cross their fingers and hope for the best because they're distracted by the younger kids.

brizzlemint Fri 19-Apr-19 02:05:32

It sounds like she needs some loving attention herself. Children who are behaving badly are often doing it to get attention as negative attention is better than no attention. Why not take her out for a day or camping for a weekend and keep it relaxed and low key, she might open up and talk to you which might be just what she needs.
Do try not to judge her, I know her behaviour is appalling but there will be a reason for it and she is still a 12 year old child.

MovingThisYearDefinitely Fri 19-Apr-19 02:06:48

Not read the whole thread, but speaking as someone with a dx of ADHD myself & 2 DD dx ASD who are completely different & present together in a similar way to these 2 girls I would be getting the 12 year old assessed asap. It took my 19 year old until she was 18 to get dx because she presented acceptably at school, yet at home she was a bitch. We now realise it was due to severe anxiety & starting Sertraline was a life changer for her. Sadly too late to save her relationship with her sister, who hasn't spoken to her in over a year, which is heartbreaking for me! sad

jesusishot Fri 19-Apr-19 02:08:40

Don't try to present not taking the 12-year-old as some kind of retribution for her behaviour; it will only antagonise her (and probably her parents) and won't improve the way she treats her sister. If anything, it'll make things worse. Just say you can't cope with all of them and think it would be nice for the eldest to get some respite from the younger ones.

butterflywings37 Fri 19-Apr-19 02:15:55

Having read your other thread, I think taking the other siblings without her is fine. Her behaviour is very unkind and she seems to have significant issues with her sinking having autism but revels in tormenting her. I'm surprised some people on here think it is ok to pick on, bulky and torment someone because of their disability ( shouting down her ears, taking her bag of counting objects/taking some out and laughing etc is cruel and targeting something sensitive/needed as a result of their disability)

12 years old is not a baby - 12 years old know right from wrong and if any of my own children did the behaviours you've described to their disabled sibling I'd come down on them like a ton of beings. Sibling bickering is one thing but some of the things she's doing are very nasty.

justilou1 Fri 19-Apr-19 02:17:17

I think you can suggest it to her parents, but don't be surprised if you are told that it's an all for one, or none at all situation.

Takethebuscuitandthesink Fri 19-Apr-19 02:17:43

@MitziTheTabbyIsMyOverlord

Sorry but I have to disagree. A 12 year old is not a “baby” and certain behaviours are obviously not on there is a huge developmental difference between a 12 year old and a 7 year old and then a 2 year old. Also age 12 you are old enough (assuming no SEN) to make certain sacrifices and allowances for the collective good of the family/group that a 7 year old simply can’t be expected to make. 12 is plenty old enough to take responsibility and although my previous point still stands some of the behaviour this 12 year old has exhibited are downright nasty. Age 12 according to a court is old enough to take responsibility for your actions wear-as age 7 is not old enough to take responsibility according to the law.

Canuckduck Fri 19-Apr-19 02:29:44

You obviously want to punish the 12 year old because you don’t think that your sister is parenting well. Of course you aren’t obligated to take the 12 year old but you stepping in in this way is undermining your sister’s authority and in bound to cause issues. I can’t see any long term good coming from it. You should talk to your sister and make a mutual plan with her.

Halo84 Fri 19-Apr-19 02:43:37

I don’t think it’s wrong to exclude her, although I’d approach it as she should have time with her mother, as pp have suggested.

How far from home is the camping?

You could take her but warn all that the first time they misbehave, that child goes home. Then take her home when she does misbehave.

HotSauceCommittee Fri 19-Apr-19 03:03:55

Wouldn’t a gentle chat with your sister be better?

Thepacksurvives Fri 19-Apr-19 06:30:52

I've read both threads and actually feel really sorry for the 12yo, she's obviously lacking attention and jealous. Op maybe you should adjust your attitude slightly and view it as a positive thing to leave the elder with her mum for some special time. You sound like you really dislike her

ittakes2 Fri 19-Apr-19 06:54:29

My two children have just gone through an autism and ADHD assessment process. As part of this we were asked if they had some of those behaviours your DN12 seems to have. My children were not diagnosed as having either autism or ADHD but my daughter's working memory was a lot lower than her English abilities which they said can result in some autistic traits - since her working memory part of her brain was not fully developed this then indicated parts of her social and emotional skills might not be either hence the appearance of autistic traits without actually being autistic. This sort of brain development can run in families. Basically, I am wondering if DN7 is autistic whether DN12 actually has some undiagnosed autistic or ADHD traits. My daughter is also 12 and showed absolutely no signs of any autistic traits until she was 10. The specialist said that children's brains developed a lot during puberty and this is why children's behaviour can be quite dramatic at this time.
Your niece is going through a huge mental and physical change with puberty. Her behaviour sounds appauling and I would encourage her mum o go the doctor to be asked to be referred to CAHMS for assessment and perhaps family therapy. But DN12 is a kid - and I also agree with others she would benefit from some alone time with her mum. She does more nurturing.

TitianaTitsling Fri 19-Apr-19 07:01:35

Very much agree with archive and Mitzi every post of yours is filled with contempt and loathing for 12yo, and you have completely discounted any possibility that she may also have any needs, l think it would be wrong and dangerous for you to be the sole adult in any situation with this child given the negativity you see in any interaction. How could there possibly be a good outcome for anyone?

Meandmetoo Fri 19-Apr-19 07:14:39

The adults in this situation should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

archivearmadillo Fri 19-Apr-19 07:25:50

Reading the OP's other thread her own children also mirror her sisters - she also has 3 DDs with big age gaps, she thinks the middle one has PDA, which is a form of autism, she resents her eldest child for "undermining" her with her 5 and 2 year olds...

The OP is a lone parent so is proposing to take 5 children, including two 2 year olds, an autistic 7 year old and a 5 year old with suspected pathological demand avoidance whom the OP says she struggles to cope with, and her own 10 year old who tries to help (which the OP resents) camping as sole adult in order to teach a 12 year old a lesson about being unwanted and disliked.

MadAboutWands Fri 19-Apr-19 07:28:13

I dont agree.
The fact that the 12yo might also have some SN doesn’t mean it’s ok for her to be bullying anyone else, let alone another child with SN.
The issue here is clearly with the parents who haven’t been able o implement boundaries, protect ALL their children and give them the attention they ALL need.

FWIW I know a child who is like this. Attention seeking, annoying etc etc. No SN at all but actually a really intelligent child that has been fucked up by their familial environnement. The consequence is that most children are avoiding her sad She is a similar age too and the reality is that, as she is getting older, she is being made fully responsible of the way she acts rather than acknowledging the fact her parents have a lot to do with it.. I suspect etc the same is happening here. As the 12yo is moving from being a child to a teenager, she is being held responsible of the way she acts more and more, with less leeway than she had as a child

OP I would take the younger two. See how it goes and how easy or ‘hard work’ it is to deal with both of them (because let’s be honest, I’m pretty sure that dealing with the 7yo isn’t easy either.... SN or not).
I suspect it will do a lot of good to the y Ingest siblings, the oldest one and the mum be separated for a week. Do you think the mum could use that opportunity for some 1-1 with the 12yo?

MadAboutWands Fri 19-Apr-19 07:31:16

archive if that is the situation (lone parent w 3 , one of which might also be in the spectrum), then taking another two dcs with her sounds a crazy idea! Along the lines of taking more than yoU can chew.

I don’t think that putting yourself (and the dcs) in a difficult position just to teach the other child a lesson would be wise. It wouodnt be wise either if it was about giving the mum a break or allowing them to get some 1-1 time either.

archivearmadillo Fri 19-Apr-19 07:33:17

MadAboutWands If the OP's sister allows her to take two 2 year olds, a 5 year old with PDA and an autistic 7 year old and a long suffering confused 10 year old camping as sole adult she's clearly got enormous cognitive problems or is desperate enough to put her children in a high risk situation...

Bagpuss5 Fri 19-Apr-19 07:35:02

Often strong feelings stem from something from our past so perhaps the OP was brought up with a golden child or was bullied so feels more strongly about the situation than others.The 12 year old does seem to be deliberately winding the OP up, very aggravating but Op should be prepared for it and ignore.
My eldest DS always felt he was less favoured than his younger siblings. I've no idea why and he was slightly favoured in my attempts to correct his belief.
I wonder if the older child is embarrassed by the behaviour of the 7 year old. Doesn't want to be seen with them. And a 5 year gap is quite long. And could be jealous that she gets less attention than her sibling. 1:1 time with her mother sounds a great idea.
I would think the 12 year old will reduce her teasing when she gets older and spends more time with her teenage friends and has less family time.

Mummyoflittledragon Fri 19-Apr-19 07:41:04

I agree with the more moderate voices. Your dn is 12. She’s still very very much a child. Not even reached her teens. The prefrontal cortex - which amongst other things determines personality - is only half formed by the time a person reaches 18. There is so much that can be done with and for this child. Something is going terribly wrong.

What would I do? Talking to your sister would be my priority. In an non judgmental way. Perhaps your sister / her partner do speak to your dn behind closed doors and you really don’t have a clue what’s going on because you have such an aversion to a little girl. So talk to your sister from a place of concern for her 12 yo and the dynamic between her and the other children. Not judgment. Then come up with a plan together, which takes the needs of all the children including yours into account. Either you take her 12 yo or you take the younger 2. And if you can’t talk to your sister, talk to her partner.

I am going to read your other thread. However right now my reaction is one of anger against you op. You really aren’t showing yourself in a nice light. And tbh your attitude to this child is part of the problem. Don’t you realise your 12 yo dn is picking up on how you feel? Your presence is making this so much worse. Poor child.

And yes, encourage your sister to get your dn assessed as a priority.

Mummyoflittledragon Fri 19-Apr-19 07:44:43

archive
I didn’t read your post before writing mine. Gosh that sounds even more awful. God only knows how to save these older girls. sad

Lonecatwithkitten Fri 19-Apr-19 07:44:42

My sister has three children, but it is her youngest who has autism. Her middle child really struggles because she is often asked to be grown up because of her younger sibling and often what she would like to do is compromised by her younger siblings difficulties.
She is pulled up on her behaviour, but she also needs time away from her younger sibling to be a normal teen. As a family how do we achieve this? My parents often have the younger sibling overnight to give my sisters family a break. The middle child in long school holidays will come and stay with me for a whole week as my DD is the same age.
Yes she needs to reminded her behaviour is not on, but she also needs understanding. It sounds a little like your sister is worn out with everything.

vegpatch Fri 19-Apr-19 07:46:20

I'm totally with Ewitsahuman here. You shouldn't take her because you clearly dislike her and she'll have a horrible time with you.
She's 12, a child. It's really bloody hard being the sibling of a child with SN. It's also just hard being 12 generally. You are expecting a degree of kindness and empathy from a child that you are unwilling or unable to demonstrate yourself, and it sure as hell isn't your place to teach someone elses child a lesson.

Honeydukes92 Fri 19-Apr-19 07:49:59

I grew up with a SN sibling and was horribly under stimulated. It didn’t help that I was an exceptionally bright child.
(DM was even approached by my primary school and asked to put me forward for a full scholarship at the nearby private school - but felt that would be too much hassle for them to deal with at the time and unfair to my sibling (who struggled academically)🙄)

I’m not condoning all of the bahaviour you describe, but do you actually have any idea what it’s like to grow up knowing that you’re the least important child op? Having meals and activities dictated to by a sibling? Being constantly reminded that they’re ‘special’ whilst you’re completely bloody ‘ordinary’ and should be ‘grateful’ for that?

My behaviour used to SUCK and 9/10 times it was because I was being held back and made to work at 40% capacity to equal that of my sibling! As an adult I can see why my parents did it- but I still don’t think it was right.

I feel quite sorry got the 12 YO, as I’m sure many thought I was painful at the same age, maybe she’s putting all her undirected and misplaced energy/potential into the wrong places, like arguing!

TanMateix Fri 19-Apr-19 07:57:00

I disagree about this being a 12 year old’s cry for attention, this is a bully who is taking relish at hurting her disabled sister continuously with the implicit approval of her mum. She is getting away with this because her mum is enabling her by not protecting the victim. I bet she gets the lion’s share of the mother’s attention already and is acting even worse than normally in front of you because you are trying to protect (or in her eyes “favour) a sibling she considers below herself. Queen bee behaviour all the way.

I would probably concentrate on taking 7 year old on her own, and do things with her without the other 2, because if you make a point of excluding the bully, she is not going to take it out on you, she will take it out on the 7 year old.

At 12, she is not a toddler misbehaving for attention, she is a young adolescent who has been allowed to bully a sibling freely.

gamerwidow Fri 19-Apr-19 07:59:38

It sounds like she desperately needs a dose of her mum's full attention. She has one sibling with SN, another sibling who is at a particularly demanding age, and she herself is coming up to a fairly major stage of her development and it becomes quite clear that she quite probably has some emotional needs that aren't being met.

This.

She sounds very unhappy and this behaviour probably comes from feeling very low down in the pecking order of the family. If she didn't act up would she get any attention at all?

Ghanagirl Fri 19-Apr-19 08:09:36

@Ewitsahooman
You seem lovely😕

AmaryllisNightAndDay Fri 19-Apr-19 08:10:20

The 12 year old sounds very unhappy. She has issues of her own which are very likely having to take a back seat to her sister. Having read the other thread the 12 year old sounds disturbed by her sister's disability and the effect it's having on her family. She's not handling it well. It may seem very threatening to her. Maybe she's afraid of finding that she has autism or some other disability too (and that is quite possible, I've met a few sibs whose families are sure they are NT because on the surface they appear very different and much more "normal" compared to the diagnosed sib, but later on they get diagnosed too), maybe she's afraid of losing her mother's attention, etc. It's nobody's fault but some of her your oldest niece's needs aren't being met and that's affecting her.

taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

That's quite likely. And if so it's very sad that's the best way she has to get it.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

Well, it's reasonable to not want to take her with her the other girls. But if you can, take her by herself another time as well. Give her the individual attention she craves. Does she behave nicely when she's away from her sisters? Give her that opportunity and give them all that respite. And taking her sisters away while leaving her to enjoy some calm one-to-one time with her Mum sounds like a great way to help all of them.

Tawdrylocalbrouhaha Fri 19-Apr-19 08:22:17

I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to dislike your DN, given her behaviour, and I certainly would not be taking her anywhere. However it doesn't sound as if you are especially well placed to take her siblings away either, and your DSis may well be offended by the offer, so I would just support her as best you can in other ways.

acomingin Fri 19-Apr-19 08:28:46

I wouldn't take her. She needs to learn actions have consequences.

LakieLady Fri 19-Apr-19 08:30:59

Looks like it's typical MN where a bully will receive more sympathy than their victim.

I don't think it's about sympathy, more a recognition that most children who bully do so because of their own issues or some kind of unmet need.

In such cases, exclusion and punishment make things worse, not better. Working on the cause of the bullying is much more effective.

Stressedout10 Fri 19-Apr-19 08:41:48

Op I read your last thread but didn't post at the time.
I come at this from a different perspective 1 of my cousins was like this 12 year old. She bullied all of us mercilessly her siblings the worst, culminating in her being removed by ss to protect her younger siblings after purposely braking her younger brother arm.
Before anyone tries to defend her she had years of therapy of every kind and all the love and support she could ever need or want.
The last time I heard anything about her she was in jail for slashing a womans face because she looked at her bf the wrong way.
I don't have any advice other than please protect the other kids from her

Sarahjconnor Fri 19-Apr-19 08:42:18

Buy your sister a copy of ‘Mercury’s child’ by Warwick dyer. It is a guide to parenting defiant children and is incredibly helpful in my experience.

LL83 Fri 19-Apr-19 08:43:13

Yanbu to take the younger ones alone.

However rather than try to punish 12 year old as mum doesn't have you tried talking to your sister? Why does she not defend 7 year old? Can she not see this behaviour? Is she so overwhelmed she doesn't have the energy? Your sister needs to teach the 12 year old how to behave and give her the attention she needs. I would be asking myself is there anyway I can support sister to do that (and one answer may be taking younger ones camping to allow her to concentrate on 12 year old)

Mememeplease Fri 19-Apr-19 08:45:00

What happens if you pull her up on things at the time? Does your sister get mad at you?

I think she needs love bombing. Fake it till you make it. But at the same time she needs clear boundaries.

When she gave the toy away I would have said "that is really mean" and then bought the sibling another one but I'd try to give lots of other positive attention at other times including quick hugs.

UserName31456789 Fri 19-Apr-19 08:45:28

Depends how you do it. If you make a point of leaving out the 12 year old you'll make the situation worse long term. If between you and your sister you work out a way to make it seem like the 12 year old is having some special time with her mum then I think it's fine.

Obviously long term your sister needs to sort out the 12 year old's behaviour. She's obviously troubled herself and could quite possibly be on the spectrum or suffering from a MH issue. Your sister should be on it.

UserName31456789 Fri 19-Apr-19 08:46:17

I also like Mememeplease's advice about a combination of very clear boundaries and love bombing.

Alwaysgrey Fri 19-Apr-19 08:52:51

I have three kids and two have Sen. They’re 11,10 and 8. The 10 and 8 year old has autism. The oldest sibling is very good with her 8 year old sibling because she can see how her autism affects her (8 year old is at a special school and is non verbal). She has in the past been quite mean to the 10 year purely because she can walk, talk seems like she has no issues. We’ve talked a lot. 11 year old has her own issues with fitting in and school. I won’t accept her bullying her sibling but I do make sure I talk. So many adults don’t understand how kids on the spectrum are effected and yet kids are meant to get it when they live with them. I didn’t read your other thread and it sounds like the 12 year old is being very difficult but maybe as her aunt you need to look at what the behaviour is communicating. It could be she needs help. 12 is very very young. A lot of my attention goes to my kids with Sen. I work very hard with my eldest to try not to leave her out but I’m spread thin and my younger two often need me more. I’m aware for my eldest growing up with two siblings with Sen is hard. And unfair. I’m very protective of my middle child as we are very close. But don’t forget your older niece. Because she clearly needs some help.

alittleprivacy Fri 19-Apr-19 08:57:16

I've re-read the post and why does some of it get you so agitated? Like the moon bit? Does that really matter so much? Has it got to the stage where ANYTHING she does you will see negatively?

I'm thinking this especially because with regard to the moon, the OP is wrong. The full moon is tonight, so the niece was right to have said it wasn't full. Yet the OP, despite being wrong is driven to profanity while recounting her feeling of rightness. Sorry OP some of her behaviour sounds terrible but you are very, very clearly trying to find fault with the girl. The one description of her behaviour that we have any context on shows you to be totally in the wrong but absolutely furiously attached to your wrongness and outraged that she disagreed even though she, as it turns out, was totally right. It makes me question the context of everything else you've written about her.

Romax Fri 19-Apr-19 09:06:06

She sounds unpleasant
And may well grow in to an unpleasant adult

But until she reaches adulthood, I reckon she deserves benefit of the doubt and leaving her out may well result in an even more unpleasant adult.

So yes I do think YABU. But wouldn’t be if we were discussing an adult

Starlive23 Fri 19-Apr-19 09:07:33

I don't think you are BU at all, it clearly would ruin it for other children going, and that's not fair. She sounds like she's playing up for attention but her parents REALLY need to address this asap!

As mean as it might make you feel OP I think you'd be doing all the other children attending a favour. Hope you have a great time and DN7 has a great experience.

AnnieMay100 Fri 19-Apr-19 09:09:04

That breaks my heart to read it’s shocking how some children behave towards their siblings. Can you offer to take just the 7 yo and spoil her rotten? I wouldn’t take 12 yo and limit contact too, she could eventually turn on your children and it’ll only get worse once the teen years start if her parents let her get away with it.

AnnieMay100 Fri 19-Apr-19 09:11:18

Also echoing what others have said she is probably left out st home and desperate for attention, but she isn’t your child to parent that’s up to her own parents to address. I think 7 yo would benefit first and foremost from some alone time away from sister.

HoppingPavlova Fri 19-Apr-19 09:13:20

I would think it’s possible that the 12yo has additional needs but has flown under the radar if not as bad as her sister.

Another option (instead or as well as) is that she has found it pretty challenging to live in a family with a SN sibling who’s care entails a fair bit of attention. She has developed these behaviours as s means of getting attention from everyone around her, focusing the attention on her even if it is negative attention.

So I think YABU as you seem to only focus on your dislike of her behaviours not any possible reasons for the behaviours. I’m guessing if she got direct one on one attention or people employed positive strategies for dealing with her behaviour in situations where she can’t have the attention she needs then you would see a change in behaviour.

Taking the other kids camping may be good in the sense she gets a break and gets her parents and their attention to herself but it may also be she thinks all her problems will be solved if she can just get rid of her siblings. I think this is a complex case that requires professional assistance (good clinical psych) who can connect with the child and direct the parents in regards to strategies that will work in the context of their everyday life. What’s not helpful is an aunt sitting back slagging her off.

SunshineCake Fri 19-Apr-19 09:13:59

Maybe the benefit the younger children will get from not being bullied by their sister for a week is worth your annoyance that she would be being "rewarded" with a week with her mum. She's not being rewarded, it's just a natural consequence of you wanting to take her siblings away.

TheBlessedCheesemaker Fri 19-Apr-19 09:15:13

Sounds as if the eldest child also has autism and has been masking it/presenting it in a very different way her whole life.

Notonthestairs Fri 19-Apr-19 09:15:48

This makes for very sad reading. It doesn't sound as if either of the girls are particularly happy or having their needs met. And your camping trip won't fix this - who ever you take. It can only be dealt with by the parents.

In any event I think it might be worth it for you to spend a bit of time with the 7 year old and the 12 year old separately - cinema and a burger for the older child? Get to know her better - I suspect out of the usual family dynamic she's quite different.

Slazengerbag Fri 19-Apr-19 09:16:29

Op it’s not your place to punish your niece. You seem overly invested. Most of what you have said is pathetic and says more about you than the niece. You argued with a 12 year old about the moon?? As a pp has pointed out your niece was correct and you were wrong. Will you apologise to her or just add another thing she pissed you off with to the list.

It seems that she is very jealous of her siblings (running to get mums hand first). 12 year olds aren’t adults and are still very much children, from everything you have said it seems she is crying out for attention. If she’s naughty then she’s getting attention. She won’t care how she’s getting it as long as she’s getting some. Autistic children take up a lot of the parents time which is completely understandable. She needs one on one with an adult.

The way you have spoken about her is awful. I think you should step away from her completely as she doesn’t need someone who clearly hates her in her life.

OneInEight Fri 19-Apr-19 09:21:26

I have to say it still rankles that my SIL decided to take it on herself to punish ds2 for some misdemeanour (without going into details was not a nice thing to do but in no way did it affect her) when she had no idea of the circumstances or what he was was going through at the time. It was probably done with good intentions but the end result was we barely see her anymore.

grumiosmum Fri 19-Apr-19 09:30:10

Errmmm - full moon is today, so she was actually right about that.

Ewitsahooman Fri 19-Apr-19 09:31:26

@Ewitsahooman You seem lovely😕

I'm fucking delightful, thanks.

Goldmandra Fri 19-Apr-19 09:33:15

Having read your other thread, I think the 12YO has neurodevelopmental difficulties of her own. It can be quite hard to see them when you are around children who present differently and I know from personal experience that a parent can find it very hard to accept that a second child is struggling after the first is diagnosed.

I'm not excusing the cruel behaviour in any way but I think it may be as a result of resentment, confusion and distress that her own needs aren't being met, yet her sister's are. She may not even realise this herself or she may be taunting her sister about her autism precisely because she feel insecure about having ASD herself. My 12YO knew she had ASD for 6 months before I did.

I don't know that splitting them up for a week would help and it may make matters worse.

It may be that the best thing that could happen to your DN is for someone to listen to her with an open mind about the root of her behaviour and explore how she experiences the world. You may find that things are a lot harder for her than anyone has realised.

Candleglow7475 Fri 19-Apr-19 09:36:38

God the other thread sad I really don’t know if leaving her out is the right thing to deal with this though? You sister should be stopping this, it seems like a sustained bullying campaign.

HexagonalBattenburg Fri 19-Apr-19 09:38:17

To be honest as someone who has children with a similar dynamic between them (elder one who can be very defiant and abrasive when allowed to be and a younger child who has a more naturally "easy" character combined with special needs) - I would be incredibly pissed off with you if you turned around and told my DD1 that you were taking the younger siblings away but not her because of her behaviour. That's not your judgement call to make... if you said you were taking them so she could have some special time with her mum - that would be different.

DD1 has elements of this in her - difference is my family don't hate on her for these - we understand WHY she can behave in such a fashion and work on the underlying causes of them... and she does tend to suffer in terms of a lack of attention sometimes when we're managing DD2 through one of her periods of incontinence or emotional upset because of how things are going badly at school and needing time to do things like speech therapy work etc. She is also very very anxious naturally and tends to try to control situations - she'd argue about the moon just so she's in charge and "right" and if you handle it poorly it would end up entrenched with heels dug in on both sides. Underneath it all she's a lovely lovely kid and it's just constantly reminding yourself not to fall into the trap of inadvertently reinforcing the negative attempts at attention seeking - and it's starting to pay dividends but at times of uncertainty we do sometimes just have to batten down the hatches and ride out the storm (we've just been through it until junior school allocations were confirmed). We also have to be quite careful not to handle her in a way to squash her down - she actually needs building her self-esteem UP as it's very fragile and she slips into Vicky Pollard mode to hide this (thankfully school realise this as well - in fact it was one very wise teacher who spotted and unpicked a lot of the pattern).

Difference is mine is generally incredibly kind and protective toward her little sister though - apart from normal sibling bickering.

SchadenfreudePersonified Fri 19-Apr-19 09:38:44

I've re-read the post and why does some of it get you so agitated? Like the moon bit? Does that really matter so much? Has it got to the stage where ANYTHING she does you will see negatively?

When the situation is like this - constant arguing and contradictions and spite - it is just very, very wearing, and even the slightest thing becomes irritating out of all proportion to what it is.

I think this child sounds awful. And I think her mother is buying into her spiteful behaviour by constantly letting her get away with it.

Regarding the prize hat was given away to a stranger rather than to her younger sister - I would have ten the 7 y-o out and bought whatever it was for her.

OP - I wouldn't take this child away with me - your whole holiday will be a nightmare! Tell her why you don't want to take her - that her behaviour (not her) is unacceptable and you can't cope with her being so unpleasant all of the time.

Most children (of both sexes) are, in general, very protective of younger siblings (yes - there will be times they fight like cat and dog, but mostly they look after each other).

This girl is either very troubled or is just a little toad (and some children/ people are). Either way, you can't be expected to put up with it all day every day.

Take your other nieces if your sister will allow them to go without the oldest one, and leave her to have her mother to herself. She will both enjoy it and resent it, but there's nothing you can do about that.

qazxc Fri 19-Apr-19 09:41:15

It's a moot point surely, as DN will not go anywhere without her mum, she will refuse to go on camping trip anyway .

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